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Angelone
My SR group had a discussion last night and I'd like the opinion of my fellow Dumpshocker's. This is a two-part deal so bear with me.

Say Mage_01 gets creamed by a bus, a group of trolls, or any of the other dangers of the sixth world. Mage_01's body is wrecked no way to help it with current tech.. However, his doctor tells him "Hey, Mage_01 we can just clone you and place your brain into the clone, cause we rock." Granted a doctor won't say it like that but you get my drift. What do ya'll think of that?

Second scenerio say same thing happens, but this time they chrome/bio up the body before hand, with none of the magical side-effects. Thoughts?

I'm fine with the first, but the second is in my mind to much. Sure his essense isn't in the body when they're doing the operations, but still your basically making a cyberzombie with none of the drawbacks which can cast spells.

If needed I'll clear this up later. I'm still trying to think through it.
Herald of Verjigorm
Head in a jar retains full essence because you do not get penalized essence for loss of a body part.

Head in a perfect clone retains full essence because the body is properly clonal.

Head in a cybered body needs all that cyber integrated into the nervous system, which is one of the potential causes of essence loss.

Head in a bioware body must deal with the constant battling between the immune system and the variant DNA organs, so that definitely faces full bio-index penalties. That and the general tendency of magic to struggle when dealing with a person that has multiple genetic templates.
Ancient History
No dice. SR still doesn't have full-woking clones, much less brain transfer techniques that work yet.
Velocity
QUOTE (Ancient History)
SR still doesn't have full-woking clones

Are you positive, AH? I'm pretty sure I can teach a clone how to stir-fry.
Trax
Arms and legs could be cloned, although the torso most likely cannot, so he'd have to get a cyber one.
mmu1
QUOTE (Ancient History)
No dice. SR still doesn't have full-woking clones, much less brain transfer techniques that work yet.

If that's the case, the writers once again screwed the pooch. Biologically speaking, it's actually much easier to make a complete clone than a single body part or organ. The former just requires a working cloning technique, but the latter also requires a huge amount of genetics work.
Herald of Verjigorm
Shadowtech has some fluff text about the rest of the body being useless in the bioware creation system. That tends to indicate that whole bodies are usually cloned, but with varrying amounts of usable parts. However, later text may override that.
CirclMastr
Didn't they say in the Geneware section of SOTA '63 that they could make full-body clones but just couldn't develop the brain of said clone?
Angelone
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Head in a cybered body needs all that cyber integrated into the nervous system, which is one of the potential causes of essence loss.


That's what bothers me. If their is only a chance of essense loss why not roll the dice? Also would a clone have the same essense limit as a living metahuman it has no spirit so it could be argued it has no limit, so implant away. If you're going to go that far though just make a cyberbody.

QUOTE
Head in a bioware body must deal with the constant battling between the immune system and the variant DNA organs, so that definitely faces full bio-index penalties.  That and the general tendency of magic to struggle when dealing with a person that has multiple genetic templates.


Is this the case even with cultured bioware? I don't have MM handy. If so it's funny that bioware is more harmful than cyberware to your system.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Angelone)
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Jul 30 2005, 11:51 AM)
Head in a cybered body needs all that cyber integrated into the nervous system, which is one of the potential causes of essence loss. 

That's what bothers me. If their is only a chance of essense loss why not roll the dice?
No, I said it is one of the possible causes of essense loss, not that there is a possibility of essense loss. There's a difference. One is knowing a cause that may have an effect, and the other is speculating on what is causing a known effect.
QUOTE
Also would a clone have the same essense limit as a living metahuman it has no spirit so it could be argued it has no limit, so implant away. If you're going to go that far though just make a cyberbody.
Sure, you can cyber it as much as you want, but only zombies and shedim will be able to make use of it.
QUOTE
QUOTE
Head in a bioware body must deal with the constant battling between the immune system and the variant DNA organs, so that definitely faces full bio-index penalties.  That and the general tendency of magic to struggle when dealing with a person that has multiple genetic templates.


Is this the case even with cultured bioware? I don't have MM handy. If so it's funny that bioware is more harmful than cyberware to your system.

Cultured bioware is based off the potential host's DNA. It is not the hosts DNA, because that would lead to organs exactly like those that already exist in the host (excluding variances due to different nutrition and potential damage). Cultured makes implants less alien, but they still have a bio index cost which still comes with all the penalties listed in M&M.
Angelone
Okay, misunderstood you for the essense loss thing. Was wondering about how could someone maybe lose essense when they get cyber.

Herald of Verjigorm
Well, there are those interesting surgery rules that can change the amount of essence lost with an implant... but they have some serious potential drawbacks depending on how you interpret the ambiguities.
Overwatch
QUOTE
Sure, you can cyber it as much as you want, but only zombies and shedim will be able to make use of it.


HoV.. you are a genius.

I've been trying to decide the best way to introduce shedim into my particular SR universe. A corp making living clones to house them. cyberware limited only by money and imagination and mission. Thanks!
Angelone
/shudder
Man, shedim are bad enough already. Cybermonster shedim are probably the most terrifing things there could be in SR. Kind of like Night of the Living Dead, but no chance for survival.
fistandantilus4.0
wow, whole new idea for a run right there.

Shedim posseses a cyberzombie's shell somehow ( say the 'host body' just died of cancer, or gets lost in the details and forgets to live while on a mission) before it can get back to the 'shop'. The corp needs runners to recover it, as it's causing a bit of a stir (pushing the envelope:Master Shedim) in the underworld. They can't jsut go after it (say Azt, has major PR issues with that) so they need some deniable assets to take ago at recovering their tech for them. Only problem is that the cyberzombie's hazing makes it incredibly difficult to effect with magic, and the spirit bindings make it impossible to banish. How do they take it down w/o destorying it?

Possible holes though - would the hazing continue if the original 'occupant ' finally died? Would his soul still be bound by the spells, even though it expired?
toturi
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
wow, whole new idea for a run right there.

Shedim posseses a cyberzombie's shell somehow ( say the 'host body' just died of cancer, or gets lost in the details and forgets to live while on a mission) before it can get back to the 'shop'. The corp needs runners to recover it, as it's causing a bit of a stir (pushing the envelope:Master Shedim) in the underworld. They can't jsut go after it (say Azt, has major PR issues with that) so they need some deniable assets to take ago at recovering their tech for them. Only problem is that the cyberzombie's hazing makes it incredibly difficult to effect with magic, and the spirit bindings make it impossible to banish. How do they take it down w/o destorying it?

Possible holes though - would the hazing continue if the original 'occupant ' finally died? Would his soul still be bound by the spells, even though it expired?

I think the writers of Threats II saw that and tried to pre-empt that subtly.

QUOTE (p54 Threats 2)
(though shedim dislike inhabiting low Essense bodies)
Cain
As far as a brain transplant into a 100% cloned-match body: remember, transplant surgery carries with it the possibility of Deadly wounds, which in turn can lead to Magic loss. So, such a transfer isn't without risk of Magic loss, even though Essence is left alone.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (toturi)
I think the writers of Threats II saw that and tried to pre-empt that subtly.

QUOTE (p54 Threats 2)
(though shedim dislike inhabiting low Essense bodies)

good call tutori , gracias

Crusher Bob
The commentary in Shadowtech about full body clones is about the difficulty of creating 'multiple enhancements' in the same clone body. I.e. why they can make a better heart and a better liver, but they can't necessarily make a single body with both at the same time. The altered conditions that lead to the grown of the bioware 'usually' make the rest of the body really crappy. There are no comments made about 'regular clones' just the ones used to grow bioware.

A 'brain transplant' would be excessively difficult, since the entire spinal column would need to be re-connected to the new body, and so on. If I was the doctor, I'd want to just jack in a relative of wired reflexes or move-by-wire. You connect the 'body control computer' to the brain and to the new body. As a bonus effect, if you ever need a new body, you just take the old brain and the 'body control computer' and attach it to a new body. If fact, it would be cheaper and simpler to implant said brain with a vehicle control rig, stick it into a life support system, and stick it onto a drone.

The process of completely re-attaching and integrating a body would be long a tedious, why not just use mostly off the shelf technology (VCR, drone, life support) to get the same effect?

Of course, then you run into some problems with the essence system in SR, getting a full borg body (arms, legs, skull torso, eyes, ears, and so on) would cost a huge pile of money and essence. Having your body 'cut off' and jacking into a drone with basically all the same stuff would probably be cheaper and cost less essence.

I hate looking out of your eyes, Batou. Your POV's too lecherous...
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
How do they take it down w/o destorying it?


Sticky foam?

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
I hate looking out of your eyes, Batou.  Your POV's too lecherous...
gits sac is cool.gif cool
Crusher Bob
That was from the manga, where Batou is much more of a gimp. The major has just staged her death, and her and Batou are talking about the fate of her body.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
That was from the manga, where Batou is much more of a gimp. The major has just staged her death, and her and Batou are talking about the fate of her body.

Interesting. I've only seen the Anime, and only as far as the point where she gets sniped getting on the plane. There, and up to the point where the guys are teasing Batou about his reaction.



"Motoko! MOTOKO!!!!!!!!!1one"
Angelone
AFAIK, that's all that's been released in the US, hopefully more are coming soon.

The connect to a super drone was one thing that came up but we decided it be basicall like making a full cyberbody and putting the brain in their. Thinking about it though, putting your body in something like an Ares Guardian would be damn interesting.
weblife
Just implant a VCR lvl 3 set. Then have the body contain lifesupport etc. for the brain, and hardwire it to the brain so it can't be scrambled.

It'll function like an ordinary Drone. Technically the VCR replaces all need for further direct hookups to the brain. The drone capabilities are simply hooked up to the VCR through the subscriber list.

The body will not be influenced by mindaffecting spells, as its eyes and sensors are not paid for with essence. It'll count as a vehicle, so discount one DL and halve Power of attacks.

This closely resembles the idea of a Dwarf rigger riding a Troll Antroform drone.
nezumi
I recollect reading something about subtley changing the DNA of a person before birth so certain effects occur 'naturally' with decreased essence loss. I would probably allow that if you're cloning a body. And for a *TON* of cash, I would let someone do a 'brain transplant'. But I would put in a few things:

1) It's tremendously expensive. We're talking a base cost of a few million nuyen at MINIMUM at a Beta level clinic or better (you could make the offer to your local street doc for less, but would you really want to?)

2) There would be certain cyber required to reconnect your brain to stuff. Probably .5 essence for a neural shunt, effectively. Something like that.

3) I would probably roll randomly for some new flaws. A full brain transplant is a dangerous thing indeed, and even when successful, problems will occur.

4) I would have the chances of the character dying much higher (maybe 3 or 4 successes required on a body test? Well, don't know if a body test is really appropriate any more...) Healing time also will take some serious time, to regrow nervous tissue.

5) And the final killer, there would be significant essence loss beforehand for 'brain in a jar' mode. That's effectively a full body replacement with a cyber version. For a mage, that would suck royally. For the street sam maybe not so much, since when the brain is transplanted he'd just have an essence hole. Being a nice GM, I do let essence 'regrow' over time, but the mage won't be happy for some time.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi)
I recollect reading something about subtley changing the DNA of a person before birth so certain effects occur 'naturally' with decreased essence loss.

In vitro genetech. It's the higher quality version of those changes, but also requires some careful backstory to justify. Genetech modifications can be useful, but aren't anywhere near as dramatic as most other augmentations.
weblife
Also, you do not lose Essence just for losing your body. You lose it if you hook stuff into the neural pathways of the brain.

A brain in sustenance liquid with nanos cleaning and keeping it nice and safe, it would lose no Essence.

If said brain got hooked up with a Datajack, then it'd lose Essence for the datajack implant, but could now use hooked up appliances like a camera, text box/voice modulator and so on.

And hooking the brain back up inside an organic body shouldn't in itself cost Essence, atleast you do not lose essence for attaching a cloned leg. There will be no "leftover" cyber in the body after healing. You'd use transient nanos to make the repairs, but since the body is not hooked into the nanos, there's no Essence loss.

But we completely agree on price. Millions.
nezumi
QUOTE (weblife @ Aug 3 2005, 04:13 AM)
Also, you do not lose Essence just for losing your body. You lose it if you hook stuff into the neural pathways of the brain.

A brain in sustenance liquid with nanos cleaning and keeping it nice and safe, it would lose no Essence.

I SUSPECT that keeping a brain alive, functioning and sane (that last one is important) would require some pretty hefty cyber. Not just a bath of nanites. Remember the explanation for what essence is too. I haven't heard a single explanation for how essence works that would not penalize you severely if you're a brain in a jar.

Edit: And you don't just lose essence for hooking stuff into neural pathways. Fingertip compartments and bone lacing both cost essence. How cutting off a finger and putting a little pouch there costs essence and cutting off your body and putting a jar there doesn't leaves me wondering.

QUOTE
And hooking the brain back up inside an organic body shouldn't in itself cost Essence, atleast you do not lose essence for attaching a cloned leg. There will be no "leftover" cyber in the body after healing. You'd use transient nanos to make the repairs, but since the body is not hooked into the nanos, there's no Essence loss.


I'd say this in part because of game balance issues. I don't want people saving up to swap bodies. And part because this isn't just brain surgery, this is really super hardcore brain surgery. There's nothing in the books about anyone going through this sort of thing. If the doctors know a work around to give you a better chance of survival, they'll use it.
hyzmarca
You don't just keep the brain. You also keep the the heart, parts of the lungs, the liver, kidneys, stomach, part of the intestines, blood vessels, bone marrow, and any other important body part that I haven't thought of. The original metabolic system would be severly impaired but would remain intact and functional. The brain-in-a-jar would have very special dietary and medical needs, but it would be alive with little or no essence loss.
As for sanity, the bain-in-a-jar would practically live in the matrix. Magicians have it a little easier because they can astrally project. These alernate realities can give them a level of human interaction comparable to what a meat body provides.

Attaching a brain to a different organic body should have massive bio-index costs, even if it is a natural body. Only a perfectly cloned body should be free of bio-index and then it isn't the same as a body-swap at all.
nezumi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
You don't just keep the brain. You also keep the the heart, parts of the lungs, the liver, kidneys, stomach, part of the intestines, blood vessels, bone marrow, and any other important body part that I haven't thought of.

So... pretty much the whole body? nyahnyah.gif

I'd agree, but the point is you're not keeping all of that. It's JUST a brain. The body is trashed. So all of that will have to be replaced by something else, and it's probably cyber (or nanotech, which would probably still cost essence.) That or you can tell the brain to hold its breath and laugh to yourself.

Personally speaking, if I'm driving along, see a car coming at 100mph, go unconscious and wake up in the matrix and unable to log out because I'm a brain in a jar, I would *FLIP*.
hyzmarca
Vital organs take up suprisingly little space once you get rid of the excess baggage like muscles, bones, and skin. Without extremities to worry about you don't even need whole organs. 1 kidney would work fine. Half a lung wouldn't encounter hand problems if it only had a brain and some organs to support.

As for flipping. Well, that is why you use volunteers. If they know what they were getting into beforehand they should be able to cope.
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