Okay, so are there rules for armor degridation? If there aren't any cannon rules, how do you guys deal with it?

My characters usually get extra suits of armor, but I'm curiouse as to how much armor can take befor it is no longer affective. I know Rigger has rules on ablative armor, but what about personal armor, likeFF or an armored jaket?

Thank!

Canon armour degradation rules are found in Cannon Companion p96. It is optional.

There are rules, but they seem overly stupid (I think it's "whenever you take a hit that you don't stage down to nothing, it loses a point of armor -- probably the armor type that defended against the attack).

I guess it's saying that if the bullet poked through the armor, then the armor broke a little, but if the bullet got lodged in the armor, then the armor wasn't compromised one bit. Doesn't make much sense, since a bullet breaking through leaves a little hole, but a bullet lodging in the armor deforms and warps a larger section of materials.

So, not fun. If you want to play with armor degradation rules, I would say that once you have been hit by a number of bullets equal to the ballistic rating, the ballistic rating goes down by 1. So, basically, tougher armor is ... well .. tougher. And once it starts wearing down, it becomes less tough and wears out just a bit faster, until you get to the point where one shot and the armor is basically just tatered rags that don't give any protection from bullets.

Of course, this means if you can actually tag someone with 15 rounds of full auto, their armor is probably going to be degraded by at least 2 points, maybe 3. Which makes sense, considering it was just hit by 15 bullets! This rule also means that, unless they have some massivly insane body scores, their looking at one point of armor degradation per run (barring extremly long runs), since odds are, they're going to die before they take more than 11 bullets to the torso. (that would give a rating 6 armor two points of degradation).

This rule also gives you a chance at killing someone in Heavy Military Armor. Hit them with a couple of 15 round full-auto's and their armor drops from 9 hardend to something you can penetrate. Of course, that assumes you can hit them with a 15-round full auto. You're gonna have to lay alot of fire down to break through the armor without luck. It would take 3 standard 3-round bursts to take the armor from 9 hardend to 8 -- still not enough for most rounds to penetrate. After another 3 bursts, you might actually have a chance at hurting them.

You must remember that there are no hit placement system in SR yet and the way armour protects your body is handled in an abstract manner. Remember that even if a bullet does hit you when you are buck naked(you failed to Dodge), you have a chance of staging down to nothing (through pure Body). Does that mean that you have to be "degraded" then? The Armour Rules make as much sense within the framework of the SR game system as getting hit and staging down to nothing.

Getting hit and staging down to nothing doesn't mean you weren't hurt at all. Just that you weren't hurt enough to merit a light wound and a +1 modifier to all your actions (which can be a serious inconvenience due to variable TN issues) and a -1 modifier to your initiative. A hit like that is probably some dinky flesh wound.

<Back to our regularly scheduled thread>

Manufacturers of police body armor say that vests which have taken even one bullet must be returned and not reused. If anything, Shadowrun's armor degradation rules are generous. Modern ballistic armor relies on its shape and multiple layers to mitigate injury from bullets - its a total system as opposed to just a lump of magic bullet proof stuff you wear. When a bullet hits it, it is built to deform in a controlled fashion in order to dampen the velocity of that bullet gradually. A bullet proof vest of current design is a shock absorber, not a shield.

See the following for a good discussion

http://people.howstuffworks.com/body-armor.htm

I tend to agree with Clyde. I've house rule armor degredation and just make it subjective. If someone takes a lot of hits and the armor helps to soak it, I just tell them that their armor is damaged. Yeah, it's totally a judgement call on my part but it works for the atmosphere of my games. YMMV.

I generally go with

Light damage - armour ignores this.
Moderate damage - basic maintenance covers this, included in lifestyle.
Serious damage - need repairs, check with your Armourer.
Deadly damage - buy new armour.

I am not referring to weapon damage codes here, I'm talking about damage that makes it through to the wearer. If you have to soak it with your body, it made it through regardless of how much you actually take. Just my view.

As for armour degradation during a firefight. Sure, if the last guy to hit you did a moderate or higher, and the next guy is a crack shot and puts his bullet through the same hole as the last guy, then yeah I would probably rule that the armour provides less protection.

Same as I'd rule if a player was trying that stunt.

But in an average firefight, not going to happen. So no degradation.

The physical injuries suffered are generally sufficient to cover TN penalties through an extended series of firefights. Though if they keep healing each other up, start applying stun damage from fatigue. They can't heal that.

If one is layering armor, does each layer get degraded?