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Cray74
QUOTE (Cynic project)
And just because you can make a cloned part doesn't mean you can make a better cloned part.


Yes, I know, Cynic project, that's why I took the time to say (and emphasize) there were TWO advances necessary for bioware. Quoting myself:

"Once you can manage to grow replacement organs *and* have a working genetic engineering capability, bioware should be straightforward. "

No emphasis added this time - I had already emphasized that the ability to engineer improvements into the cloned material was necessary to make bioware.

QUOTE
Sure you can make bigger breasts and some what say those are better but they did that first with a more cyber type way.


Different levels of performance have little to do with the technical or economic feasibility of a technology.

For example, just because a cyberheart can beat faster than a synthicardium does not make the synthicardium technically unfeasible, it just means the synthicardium less popular with people looking for extreme cardiac performance. There are other markets that can make a synthicardium economically feasible, like heart patients looking for self-maintaining, self-healing heart repair.

Or with the cloned-vs-"cyber implant" breast augmentations, the fact that water- and silicone-filled implants were here first does not make the "cyber implants" better, safer, or more economically feasible. It just means the cyber implants were around first, nothing more. They're likely to coexist, too - some people will want the rock hard, quick augmentation offered by the "cyber implants" while people looking for more natural augmentation (which doesn't risk popping in heavy exercise or combat) will turn to the bioware breast augmentation.

QUOTE
Now cloning a better hreat changes everything about the body.


No, it just changes the heart. Your body may change in response to new activity levels enabled by the new heart but that's something the body will handle naturally, just like it would if you started exercising more. The new heart won't demand any surgical/bioware changes to the body unless (for example) it operates at aneurism levels of blood pressure.
Aku
this is just a ploy to talk about breast implants in an SR context, isn't it!
wagnern
I actualy see bioware as more practical than cyber.

What do you do to your car every 3K miles?

Change it's oil. Not that big of a deal, but what about your cyber heart? It is a mechanical device, it will wear and require preventative maintance.

However a Bioware super heart will have the same repair and maintance ability of a normal human heart. Yes, it won't last forever, and it would require sugery to repair after drastic damage, (bullets exc) but it won't have to be opened up every X months to have the seals replaced, bushings inspected, exc.

So all cyberware that is internal will have to be so overbuilt to insure long lifespan with minimal maintance.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (wagnern)
I actualy see bioware as more practical than cyber.

What do you do to your car every 3K miles?

Change it's oil. Not that big of a deal, but what about your cyber heart? It is a mechanical device, it will wear and require preventative maintance.

However a Bioware super heart will have the same repair and maintance ability of a normal human heart. Yes, it won't last forever, and it would require sugery to repair after drastic damage, (bullets exc) but it won't have to be opened up every X months to have the seals replaced, bushings inspected, exc.

So all cyberware that is internal will have to be so overbuilt to insure long lifespan with minimal maintance.

The real problem with bioware is the same problem experienced by organ transplant patients today, need for anti-rejection drugs. Anti-rejection drugs have to be taken daily and are quite expensive. Thus, bioware maintaince is actually more intrusive and more costly than cyberware maintaince.

There is also the little fact that anti-rejection drugs basicly attack your immue system, leaving you vulnerable to all sorts of infections.

As for brest implants, there is a performance issue to consider. Silicone and saline implants don't look or feel natural. The differance between natural and augmented breasts is quite obvious to anyone who pays attention. Good surgery and reasonable sizes can reduce this difference but it never goes away.

However, silicone implants do provide some protection against piercing trauma. The if a person is stabbed through a breast implant the silicone will coat and lubricate the edge of blade, reducing its cutting ability untill it can be cleaning. Also, the liquid silicone and the deflated bag will seal the resulting holes, greatly reducing bleeding and possibly keeping the wounded man or woman alive long enough for paramedics to reach the scene.
Vertaxis666
Actually, with cyberware, has it ever been adequately explained as to what powers it?

Something internal like a datajack or SmartGun Link could be run chemically from blood components. But, what about cyber arms and legs?

Bioware just works off the body's processes for power and regeneration. I'd have to say cultured bioware would be the better option long term.
wagnern
Rejection is an issue, but if you engineer it right, you could make the ware nutral to the imune system. From what I understand, it is various proteens and such that trip the imune system off that something is forgin.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The real problem with bioware is the same problem experienced by organ transplant patients today, need for anti-rejection drugs. Anti-rejection drugs have to be taken daily and are quite expensive. Thus, bioware maintaince is actually more intrusive and more costly than cyberware maintaince.

Wait, doesn't cyberware actually require anti-rejection drugs, as well?

Plus bioware can integrate gene therapy to fool the host immune system into believing the implant it part of the host, or use host cells for the mutation (thus fooling the immune system the way cancer does).
SkeevePlowse
QUOTE (Vertaxis666)
Actually, with cyberware, has it ever been adequately explained as to what powers it?

Something internal like a datajack or SmartGun Link could be run chemically from blood components. But, what about cyber arms and legs?

My theory is magic.

No, seriously.

There've been RL studies that show that the body generates a bioelectric field. By itself, not enough to power something like a cyberlimb, I know. But what if that bioelectric field is merely the physical 'shadow' of a person's astral aura? Essence loss could easily represent the implant (inadvertantly or intentionally) siphoning off a portion of the implantee's aura in order to run properly.

Of course, there have been other theories, like turbines that run on blood pressure and chemical engines that power themselves by blood sugar, but my theory amuses me more.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 8 2005, 01:29 PM)
The real problem with bioware is the same problem experienced by organ transplant patients today, need for anti-rejection drugs.  Anti-rejection drugs have to be taken daily and are quite expensive. Thus, bioware maintaince is actually more intrusive and more costly than cyberware maintaince.

Wait, doesn't cyberware actually require anti-rejection drugs, as well?

No, it doesn't. Cyberware is made of biologicaly inert materials.

Taking anti-rejection drugs for cyberware is as unnecessary as taking them for silicone breast implants or titanium bone screws.
lorthazar
Okay if a pieace of cultured Bioware is implanted in you there is only a need to take Antirejection drugs for a short time. After all the implanted part has the same tissue type and gentetic makeup. So it will be accepted pretty quickly.

Cyberware most of it needs some form of antirejection therapy. the body will want to replace anything that has taken the place of flesh. People can have bad reactions to even the most inert metals. The connections to the nervous system will have to be protein based and that you body may attack.

All in all they are both great ways of enhancing performance. Cyberware is more consistant and provides greater scope while Bioware should produce a self renewing nearly natural boost that doesn't suffer from breakdown unless you are doing things that would fry human fesh and bone.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (wagnern)
I actualy see bioware as more practical than cyber.

What do you do to your car every 3K miles?

Change it's oil. Not that big of a deal, but what about your cyber heart? It is a mechanical device, it will wear and require preventative maintance.

However a Bioware super heart will have the same repair and maintance ability of a normal human heart. Yes, it won't last forever, and it would require sugery to repair after drastic damage, (bullets exc) but it won't have to be opened up every X months to have the seals replaced, bushings inspected, exc.

So all cyberware that is internal will have to be so overbuilt to insure long lifespan with minimal maintance.

this makes some sense... same reason that people like Joss Whedon make the arguement that livestock will be used on colony/terraformed planets when/if we explore space... horses don't need power cells, and if one breaks down, you can hopefully breed new ones. Jeeps don't reproduce.

sorry if that's only vaguely related, but the relationship seems similar to me.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Okay if a pieace of cultured Bioware is implanted in you there is only a need to take Antirejection drugs for a short time. After all the implanted part has the same tissue type and gentetic makeup. So it will be accepted pretty quickly.

No. The immune system never accepts foreign organic matter. The immune system simply refrains from destroying it. A transplant patient might be perfectly fine for decades and then, out of the blue, his immune system stages an all out war on the organ. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be foreign matter. Ever hear of Multiple Sclerosis? The immune system starts attacking the nervous system for no apparent reason. It tears the insulation of nerves, leaving them exposed and vulnerable.

Transplant patients can never stop taking anti-rejection drugs and even then the drugs will eventually fail if they don't die of some other cause first. A perfectly cloned organ wouldn't be vulnerable to rejection, but geneticly altered bioware would be.

QUOTE

Cyberware most of it needs some form of antirejection therapy. the body will want to replace anything that has taken the place of flesh. People can have bad reactions to even the most inert metals. The connections to the nervous system will have to be protein based and that you body may attack.


No, the body will not try to replace anything that has taken the place of flesh. If that were true then millions of women would die in agony as their brest implants were violently expelled form their bodies. Internal organs cannot normaly be regrown. The only exception is the liver, which will regrow as long so long as a portion of it remains intact. They body will simply try to close up the wound as good as it can, usually be producing a scar. If there is something biologically inert in the way then the body will just heal around it. Anyone who has had stitches will know this.

Yes, people can have bad reactions to metals. People can also have bad reactions to peanuts and shellfish. People can have bad and highly embarasing reactions to condoms, for that matter.It is an alergy. It is a potentially deadly alergy. Needless to say, if the patient is alergic to one material it is simple enough to substitute another one.

Connections to the nervous system will be, for the most part, unnecessary. I know of no internal organ that operates voluntarilary. Various muscles that are connected to internal organs do, but not the organs themselves. It is easy enough to regulate a heart beat based on blood presure. It wouldn't be very popular with athletes, who would want an optional high-speed setting. However, it would be good enough for most people. Dermal armor certainly doesn't need any nerve connections. The only things that really needs nerve connections are DNI computer interfaces. However, it seems that they have already accomplished a primitive form of that using normal wires.
lorthazar
QUOTE
No. The immune system never accepts foreign organic matter. The immune system simply refrains from destroying it. A transplant patient might be perfectly fine for decades and then, out of the blue, his immune system stages an all out war on the organ. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be foreign matter. Ever hear of Multiple Sclerosis? The immune system starts attacking the nervous system for no apparent reason. It tears the insulation of nerves, leaving them exposed and vulnerable.

Transplant patients can never stop taking anti-rejection drugs and even then the drugs will eventually fail if they don't die of some other cause first. A perfectly cloned organ wouldn't be vulnerable to rejection, but geneticly altered bioware would be.


Actually this is a bit of a exaggeration, and a bad one at that. Some transplant patients can never stop taking anti-rejection drugs, others can. I personally am a Transplant patient and I had a course that only lasted six months. And that was 24 years ago. As for the immune system attacking the body for no reason anybody can have that, sometimes it is serious and other times it is an annoyance.

Now I have been doing some looking and can see no reason that a normal immune system would go after a slightly altered cloned organ or tissue. After all the sugar messages on it's surface are the same as the rest of the body. EXACTLY THE SAME. So unless you develop a very interesting and rare disease you should be fine


QUOTE
No, the body will not try to replace anything that has taken the place of flesh. If that were true then millions of women would die in agony as their brest implants were violently expelled form their bodies. Internal organs cannot normaly be regrown. The only exception is the liver, which will regrow as long so long as a portion of it remains intact. They body will simply try to close up the wound as good as it can, usually be producing a scar. If there is something biologically inert in the way then the body will just heal around it. Anyone who has had stitches will know this.


So your body will not try to get rid of silvers? Odd always had the opposite result my self. As for breast implants they are very careful place between layers of tissue. They don't replace tissue they merely displace it. Stitiches are never in long enough to be replaced, and Titanium screws are treated to be corrosion resistant. Thus you reasoning is again flawed. A body will try to absorb and dissapate any material it recognizes as foreign. notice that it will try it may not succeed becuase the material itself is resistant to many of the ways our body defends itself.
Zeful
umm. guys the body rejects forign matter, a cloned heart will be accepted because it will have the same genetic markers as the original heart so their would be no need for anti-rejection drugs. firsthand bioware is made specifically for the buyer so any organic components are made of cloned matter, thus creating the unfortunant side affect of no anti-rejection drugs needed.
Cynic project
And there lay a problem. Cyber parts can be made before hand or the wors a few days after the the user wants it. Mos that time bien shiping. Cloned parts need to be made and that takes time....
Talia Invierno
"interesting and rare" -- yes ... you're going to die because we have no idea what's wrong with you, first time we've ever seen anything like this -- but don't worry, we'll write a case study on it so others can learn from your interesting example ... (Any wonder medical humour is so dark?)

Re rejection:

To put it mildly, it's not cut and dried. Kidney transplants are supposed to be happy things, having one of the lowest (if not the lowest) rejection percentage among all existing types of transplants -- and yet despite all the cyclosporin etc regimens a young on-line acquaintance of mine died recently after the second time his body rejected a kidney. (Once an organ has failed due to rejection, the chances of future rejection are greatly increased.) A different version of rejection, the auto-immune diseases, has already been mentioned in this thread.

No transplantee is ever supposed to abandon their medication. Ever. The common wisdom is that rejection is always lurking at the transplantee's doorstep. At last month's World Transplant Games, there was a mad scramble at the local hospitals after the airline lost not only some of the athletes' equipment but also most of their medication (everything they didn't have in the carry-ons).

And yet a very few non-compliant (I'm not thrilled about that adjective, but it's the medical staple) persons have abandoned their anti-rejection drug regimens -- without apparent consequence. Understand: many, many more who abandoned medication very much did have consequences, morbidity, not infrequently mortality, formerly stable patients (sometimes for years) who suddenly go into rejection downward spirals: but a very small percentage don't. We know from these few that, sometimes, the body is capable of apparently full graft acceptance. We don't understand the details of how, let alone why in some few and not in most -- which makes it one of the hottest current research areas in the field. (That, and pancreatic islet transplantation, per the growing diabetes "epidemic".)
hyzmarca
Perhaps peircings would have been a better example than stitches. People have metal rings tuck in their bodies for decades with no rejection.

The advantage of cyberware isn't that the immune system won't try to atack it. The advantage is that the immune system can't attack it. Cyberware can be made of materials that are impervious to the immune system's weapons.

Of course, there are cyberhearts available today. They are rarely implanted because the people who have them don't live very long. Currently humans can't build a plastic heart that reliably aproximates the real thing.

http://www.heartpioneers.com/abiocorfaq.html


Edit: Also, I think we've discovered how cyberware is powered, transcutaneous energy transmission.
golden-one
acording to the cybertechnology source book, internal cyberwear is powered by micro batteries, and charged by either a thermister (turns heat into electricity) or something analogous to a peizo-electric crystal (movement/power).

bioware is grown ina "geneticaly neutral" clone body, harvested, and then implanted, along with a course of imuno supressents, which last as long as it takes for the surgery damage to heal.

major cyberware implantation involves several days / weeks immersion in a tank of neutrients, immuno supressants, and other goodies (source :hatchetmans intro to man and machine)

there IS no difference in "invasiveness" between an essence cost 1 cyber implant, and a bio-index 1 implant. they both require the same level of implant surgery.

as for "maintenance" no cyberware, other than mbw, actually needs maintenance. the theory being that its very ovr engineerd.

bioware does not require maintenance, as the body takes care of it itself.

remember: none of your internal cells are actually more than 3-5 months old. thats how often the human body takes to replace cells.
Canis
I think cyberware has its uses, like Cynic said itís easer to store if a rush job is needed. But Iím more inclined to believe that biotech is going to be far more important in 60+ years than cybertech. A lot of financial analysts believe biotech is the next Ďbig thingí and are really pumping money into it. Many predict it will follow an exponential growth curve (like computers) and within half a century we will probably see unimaginable things come from biotech, the stuff in SR will probably seem as silly as the computer projections of the 50s are today. Cybertech on the other hand has considerably less funding, but the cyberware described in SR is plausible imho. I think itís more likely that in 2060 bioware will be fairly common while cybertech will be fairly rare.
Rev
QUOTE (golden-one)
remember: none of your internal cells are actually more than 3-5 months old. thats how often the human body takes to replace cells.

That isn't generally true, though it may be an accurate overall average.

Cell lifecycles in your body vary greatly. I beleive red blood cells only last a few weeks, while nerve cells might last your entire life. Fat and muscle cells probably live a long time as well.
Rev
Cyberware is reasonably common today. The main limitation is that it has to be a passive hunk of plastic or metal that either doesn't move or is moved by something else: breast implants, artificial lenses for cataracts, bone replacements and reinforcements, heart valves, artificial limbs (for which the fewer bendy parts involved the better they work) etc. The most sucessful active bits of cyberware are active only electrically: pace makers, those brain zapping things, hearing aids. This is because we have pretty much surpassed the human body structurally, and are in the ballpark electrically, but aren't quite there with small mechanical devices and are completely out of our depth chemically.
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