I meant if it would go 65 years without being declared illegal.

Personally, I suspect that Seattle would be more conservative than Washington is now, as the conservative NAN is all around.

So, I suspect activity with our furry friends would quickly become illegal. Y'see, it violates nature, and the totems have indicated that no, they do not consent.

Beastality is legal in Texas, too.

They hate gays, but it's okay to fuck a dog. At least they have principles (albeit pretty messed up principles).

I suspect the nan would have little influence. It's my sense, although I could be wrong, that between now and SR times, the law becomes more hands off... not more hands on... seems like anything is available if you can pay the cred. And if it brings the critter pleasure, I can't imagine the totem objecting, unless you give the cow roofies and wait until it passes out before you make your moove.

Sense Emotion/Thought magics could settle it for us...

Cows aside for the moment, male horses can choose to cooperate with insertion and choose to thrust or not.

For the sake of discussion.

And to dovetail with what Kagetenshi was saying, *if* the animal isn't "harmed" by it, there is no good reason to outlaw it... How is "throwing a hot dog down a hallway," (in referrence to our lucky (unlucky?) bovine) any more harmful than say milking, or slaughter for steak and hamburgers? Or the glue and dog food factory in the case of the horse? If I were the cow I think my choice would be easy. Plus it's like jumping up the ladder big time. Forget the sploosers in highschool getting with the cheerleaders... this is waaaaay bigger then that. As a dog, it would be a red letter day, for me, anyway. I'd be bragging to all my doggie pals that I made it with a human (or even better, an elf) chick.

To bring this into a little more concrete SR arena, I pose that this behavior will become MORE mainstream, and "accepted." With technology, biotech advancements, magic, and corp extraterritoriality, not to mention protection of darkness in the "shadows," "alternative sexual proclivities" (dunno any more pc way to describe horse humping) will only see further activity.








On a completely unrelated note, has anybody seen subrosa post lately?

that's why you wrap the hamster in duct tape first... so it doesn't explode.

- nobody's equating bestiality with the "furries" phenomena. Furry as it has been used in this context is a descriprition of the animals coat.

- there are plenty of things that if they were legal would not be "approved." such as worshipping soda machines.

- I know this is just semantics, but I would say "maladaptive" before "unhealthy."

I'd aggree with the point about getting to a fetish gradually though, usually. Orgasm is one of the most powerful reinforcers of human behavior, and that's not likely to change in the sixth world, if it occurs within the context of certain environmental characteristics, it becomes associated with them. Another of the origins of fetishes is trauma, often times people compartmentalise an aspect of their personality and cut it off from themselves. They can only feel sexual (for example) in the presence of certain factors.

I don't think anyone's said anything directly to degrade the furry community, or at least that's not been the intent.

If anything the difference between furries and beastialists has been stressed here, so there's no need to feel defensive.

Furry's aren't the only segment of society to be stereotyped, btw... take gamers for example.

This thread could probably go in a more SR direction before it gets locked.

(I'm the last person to try to limit disscussion though, so everybody be sure to say your piece.)

Arguable for some animals.

In cases where the animal responds with physical arousal I'd call that fairly solid demonstration of as much understanding as the animal is capable of.

The larger issue is power differences, not kids not understanding what's happening. Young pubescent individuals can understand sex just fine (though obviously not all do).

Again, there are other reasons for this other than assuming total ignorance.

But you do, if you have sex at all. Or did you mean non-human animals?

~J

Heh, I think anthropormorphic dragons are sexy. "Furry' is a broad term.

There's a big difference between having fantasies about sex with a drawing-come-to-life (or actually having sex with one for that matter) and wanting to have sex with a mocked-up fursuit. Nothing against those who like it, just not my thing.

Y'know we had a CSI Epsiode Furry Discussion Though I don't think it touched on bestiality.

My opinion on bestiality: Animals (not counting exceptional ones with a genuine spiritual connection) aren't that smart so they're just glorified sex toys. No matter how well-trained they are. Give me an intelligent partner any day to an animated blow-up doll. (Again, not dissing emotional relationships with pets with sex thrown in, just those wiith physical gratification as the sole priority).

ShadowFurry I just love bringing up this site

Hey, would this be a good place to bring up therianthropes? They're not Shamans with a separate Totem, think more along the lines of very low mana Physical Adepts. They simply are who they are.

and just to prevent any misunderstandings, saying someone is deviant is *not* a value judgement. it's just a statistical variation evaluation.


Kagetenshi is spot on in his reservations. For more information, see also: http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/L/levine_harmful.html


a controversial book, agree with it or not, it's thought provoking.

Legally,non-human animals can't give consent. However, this is a moot point becacuse, legally, animals can't give anything. To the law, they are property. They have no more rights than a microwave oven or a black person in the pre-Civil War American South.
While they can't give consent themselves, their owners can certainly give consentfor them.

To further the children analogy, I can pay Mrs. Spidero $5,000 to have her prizingwinning stalion breed my mare. However, if I pay Mrs Spidero $5000 to have her award-winning son breed my daughter, we would both probably be arrested.

The comparison has no legal merit. I'll leave the arguement over actual merit to someone else for now.

The reason that bestiality is illegal in most jurisdictions is the same reason that buggery was illegal in most jurisdictions untill recently. It is about enforcing moral standards. There is a current trend to strike down these laws as violating basic human rights. In most civilized countries, lawmakers have no right to tell consenting adults which orafices they may or may not use.
By the same legal reasoning, bestiality laws should be struck down. Only by creating a new legal theory can one justify them. Creating new legal theories is something courts hate doing. Smacking down judges who try to create new legal theories is something appelate courts love doing.

Actually, I would expect animal rights activists to argue that animals do have the ability to consent to sex. It is a step closer to true human-nonhuman equality. Giving nonhuman animals completely equal rights and responsibilities is something animal rights activists should strive for.


In Shadowrun, the issue is even stranger. Today, tere are occasional instances of dolphins attempting to rape human swimmers. Most of these are thwated by swimsuits. In 2064, however, critters have new and more devious ways to sexually prey of metahumans.
The worst of these tools are the mind control powers, of course. I must wonder if a person compelled to orally pleasure a blackberry cat can be held responsible for his or her actions. This is a case where the cat is in complete control of the metahuman's actions. If the cat were a metahuman it would be guilty of sexual assualt. However, being a cat it can't be guilty of anything. It is a legal grey area.

Shapeshifters confuse the issue even more. Is it bestialityif you don't know that the person you are having sex with is a non-metahuman animal? What about other non-nonhuman sentients such as centaurs and storm dolphins? It is a conundrum.

There are such things as plants but that is a completely different paraphillia.

legality in sr is also far different then it is in our current day and age... the analogy of parents studding out kids might have different implications if it occurs on extraterritorial property, and who among the involved parties have SINs

I wasn't speaking legally, as you probably knew. Laws should proceed from non-legal reasoning, not the other way around.

~J

I don't blame you for being defensive, you identify with a misunderstood minority population... maybe some people look down on that. My point was that no-one said furries. People only discussed the furry nature of these animals coats. We're all friends here.

I aggree with Kagetenshi, for what its worth... additionally, laws change, the legal environment of the 6th world is far different from ours.

This was the first reference to furries in this topic and is not the definition of the word, which was (I think) what CrystalBlue was objecting to. I'm also embarrased that I didn't object to the dissing going on in the CSI thread when it was happening. Kinda late now, so moving on.

Oh yeah, don't forget SURGE turning people involuntarily into ShadowFurries.

Speaking of involuntary, anyone heard of the Blind Pig Universe and the stories at it's website? EDIT: *Not* the best bunch of stories, in my opinion, but the disease is cool and on-topic as some victims are transformed into non-sentient animals, some with their brains being affected and very little of the rest of them. If your wife is unlucky enough to devolve to non-human intelligence (not to mention form) it's bestiality now, right? That's pretty much the opposite of the intelligent shapeshifter (animal advancing to sentience) question. Sad stuff there.

Now that'd be a freakin' weird thing to unleash in Shadowrun, or to release in an alternate history instead of VITAS. EDIT: Or simply have some sealed vials as an adventure hook. The runners steal some, give it to Mr. Johnson, find out that if it was unleashed it would spread everywhere and have to steal it back.

ah, I stand corrected

Okay, I've inserted a disclaimer (the good bits are few and far between, and the rest...) into my original post and made it more on-topic. We good?

wait for it.... in a minute there'll be an assertion from someone on the Council for Misunderstood Schoolgirl Impersonators...










For what it's worth, I thought;

1. The Alternate Virus suggestion was interesting.
2. Your concern was funny.

As Vice Treasurer of the Council for Misunderstood Schoolgirl Impersonators I must object to the assertion that our members are all sex maniacs who spend all of their time in erotic rollplaying forums on the internet. Our members have much better things to do with their time, such as attending Sailor Moon conventions.

Such a virus could be used for more than justification of a PC hermaphrodite Gryphon with two penises. It could be rather seemlessly integrated with UGE under the justification that it alters metagenes of survivors. You'd just have to make it more deadly.
You could even just skp the visus all together and ramp up UGE into a type of ultra-SURGE. The end result is even more disenfranchized freaks in the world.

Make the virus contagious and set up quarantine zones. Have even non-contagious changlings treated like lepers.

hehe.


Maybe make it emergent in the year of the comet? maybe some debris caught in its tail that is catagorically dissimilar from the comet proper. That'd suggest it's from another source than the comet, making it ripe for conspiracy theories, yet the interaction between surge etc, is the catalyzer.