Full Version: supressive fire... why?
Alright I was wondering the opinion of everyone else here whats the deal with supressive fire? according to the rules you could stand 1 meter behind the area designated by the player and be fine? doesn't that defy physics? Do the bullets just stop or maybe get transported to a world that everyone forgot? Just wondering your opinions on it Look up the rule and see what you think for yourselves I could use a second opinon on what to do.
I think that's what happened to Neo, the agents simply suppressedthe wrong 1m square...
It never says 1 square meter of ground area.
To avoid having to compute an effect cone and defining the probability of a bullet in any spot of that cone, it's easier to just have a rectangular prismatic space where any targets have a chance of getting hit.
To avoid having to compute an effect cone and defining the probability of a bullet in any spot of that cone, it's easier to just have a rectangular prismatic space where any targets have a chance of getting hit.
| QUOTE (Maltaltin) |
| Alright I was wondering the opinion of everyone else here whats the deal with supressive fire? according to the rules you could stand 1 meter behind the area designated by the player and be fine? doesn't that defy physics? Do the bullets just stop or maybe get transported to a world that everyone forgot? Just wondering your opinions on it Look up the rule and see what you think for yourselves I could use a second opinon on what to do. |
I don't think that there's any question that the suppressive fire rules could be better. However, the real issue is...do you have a better alternative?
The square in that square meter is made of width and height, not width and depth. The bullets continue untill they are stopped by a barrier. You can possibly crawl under suppressive fir and you certainly can fly over it. But you can't just back away from it.
The suppressive fire in Shadowrun is angled precisely to either hit the ground or hit the ceiling at the back of the 1m square. That's why it always stops at exactly the square you are targeting. 
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) | ||
I don't think that there's any question that the suppressive fire rules could be better. However, the real issue is...do you have a better alternative? |
Ok well I believe that if you made the calls differently for every 1meter square after that you reduce the success one lower until the bullets hit a barrier or until the check is 2 or give them an extra dice
It's a one meter square, not a one meter cube.
| QUOTE (Maltaltin) |
| according to the rules you could stand 1 meter behind the area designated by the player and be fine? |
Where do the rules say that?
I thought you designated a stretch of ground (X meters wide) that you were hosing. If the target fell within the weapon's range and that stretch of ground, it could be hit.
Cray... That was exactly his point. Say you're standing one meter beyond the range of that area. You'll be fine, even if the guy is hosing it down with a vulcan minigun.
See the snarky Matrix comment about the Agents surpressing the wrong 1m square.
See the snarky Matrix comment about the Agents surpressing the wrong 1m square.
It is the same as how someone can be hosing the guy in front of you with a minigun and you won't get hit by stray rounds. The combat system is an abstraction.
I think cray is interurpting the rule as sometging simalr to this situation. The gun has anm effective range of 100 meters,w, x, y and z are targets. [ is the shooter. each carriage return is 1 meter across. The | is the "targeted" meter line.
| CODE |
^ 50 meters ^100 meeters x [ |w Y Z |
Now, i think cray is saying that Y should be hit, because they are within the 100 meters of the weapons range, even though they arent in the targetted square. i dont have my book so i cant judge if thats how its supposee to read, or only in the targetted square, as w is.
Think of the targeted square from the viewpoint of the shooter, like a picture frame. It's not a square from the bird's eye view. Otherwise you'd end up with Y in the example not being hit (even though he's within the 'frame' the shooter is aiming for), but a bird a thousand meters up having to roll dodge if it happens to be immediately above W.
You seriously understood the rules as saying a one-meter square on the grid map? That wouldn't make any sense at all.
You seriously understood the rules as saying a one-meter square on the grid map? That wouldn't make any sense at all.
It makes more sense than trying to figure out the trigonometry that would be required to compute the area the shooter is supressing from his PoV.
Of course, that's how it SHOULD work, mind you. It's a tunnel X wide and Y tall and as deep until the bullets hit something. But we're playing a pen and paper RPG here, one that uses a battle grid, not Armored Core on the PS2, which actually had that square, or a first person shooter like Halo.
Of course, that's how it SHOULD work, mind you. It's a tunnel X wide and Y tall and as deep until the bullets hit something. But we're playing a pen and paper RPG here, one that uses a battle grid, not Armored Core on the PS2, which actually had that square, or a first person shooter like Halo.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Cray... That was exactly his point. Say you're standing one meter beyond the range of that area. You'll be fine, even if the guy is hosing it down with a vulcan minigun. |
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| Now, i think cray is saying that Y should be hit, because they are within the 100 meters of the weapons range, |
Yes, that's what I was trying to say.
Apparently my last post wasn't clear enough. I was disagreeing with him, ShadowDragon.
An example of what I meant:
*Mack the MiniGun Monster decides to put 15 rounds of suppressive fire into a 2m wide stretch of French doors that is 10m in front of him.
*Standing in the doorway and in the 2m wide suppressive fire zone is Red Shirt A.
*Standing 20m behind the door and in the 2m wide suppressive zone is Red Shirt B.
*Because Red Shirt A and Red Shirt B are both within the 2m wide arc designated by Mack, and because Red Shirt A and Red Shirt B are both within the weapons range of the minigun, they are both within the suppressive fire zone and both do the chaingun cha-cha.
That makes some more sense but according to the rules only players or "creatures" in the square have to make the roll thats why I wanted your opinions on what to do or what to call in this situation
If the shooter puts his thumbs and forefingers together and makes a 'frame' that includes a 1-meter square, and you happen to be mostly in it and you are either a metahuman or a creature, you have to try to dodge (or just get hit). If you are not in that 'frame', you are safe. If you are a piece of furniture, you are technically safe (although presumably you get some bullet holes or other evidence). If you are behind someone else, see if he dodges. If not, ask your GM if he uses optional rules for shooting through things.
| QUOTE (Maltaltin) |
| That makes some more sense but according to the rules only players or "creatures" in the square have to make the roll thats why I wanted your opinions on what to do or what to call in this situation |
Inanimate objects don't get dodge tests.
| QUOTE |
| Think of the targeted square from the viewpoint of the shooter, like a picture frame. It's not a square from the bird's eye view. Otherwise you'd end up with Y in the example not being hit (even though he's within the 'frame' the shooter is aiming for), but a bird a thousand meters up having to roll dodge if it happens to be immediately above W. |
Well, there is such a thing as indirect fire. This would be the case if he was suppressing that 1m square by firing upward at an angle so that the bullets would land in it like a lead rain. That is very very stupid to try with a personal weapon and no sane person would try it, but it is possible.
I have to admit, I laughed out loud when I read your response, hyzmarca. You COULD do that, I suppose, but I imagine the TN would be pretty darn impressive.
| QUOTE (Maltaltin) |
| That makes some more sense but according to the rules only players or "creatures" in the square have to make the roll thats why I wanted your opinions on what to do or what to call in this situation |
If you want to hit something other than people/critters with suppressive fire - like an inanimate object (the French doors in my prior example) - I'd use the normal suppressive fire dice to apply damage against the inanimate object, per the usual object damage resistance rules.
Why not use a variant of the (modified) Shotgun spread rules?
huh. that would actually be a sensible use of the mechanic (as opposed to the utter nonsense of using that mechanic for actual shotguns).
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| huh. that would actually be a sensible use of the mechanic (as opposed to the utter nonsense of using that mechanic for actual shotguns). |
I always felt that the space taken up by that block of text would be better devoted to actual shotgun dismemberment rules, covering range and various types of shot. Soldier of Fortune II showed us that any game becomes more gritty and atmospheric when firing a M590 into someone's arm at point blank range actually removes the arm from the torso and causes blood to squirt from the shoulder in a heartbeat pattern.
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