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Elve
Since I'm a big fan of the BeCKS Charactergenerationsystem, I thought about using it for SR4.

So while reading all the stuff posted around here, I thought of trying to convert the System to the new rules.

It seemed as if in most places you could convert BP to Karma in a 1:1 ratio...

A first version is available at:
http://www.notme.de/shadowrun/hausregeln/becks/
PW: Karma

Just have a look, and tell me what you think about it smile.gif
blakkie
Password protected.
Elve
QUOTE (Elve @ Aug 26 2005, 04:21 AM)
PW: Karma

I've done the PW to prevent a half baked product to spread on the net smile.gif
Sabosect
Can I be the first to scream in horror at this idea?

The BeCKS system is just an overcomplicated karma system. We really, really do not need it. The current system is a good compromise between BeCKS and point-buy.
Elve
I don't knwo why you call it overcomplicated Karma System... It's exactly the Karma System... Thus the Name... I just like it cause getting values before and in game is just the same, so no min maxing in getting high stuff first and the whole rest later...

But you are right, the new system is actually quite good in my opinion, as it almost models the karma values...
Derek
I happen to like the BeCKS system, and look forward to a good implementation of it.

Keep up the good work.

Derek
Glyph
Not to mention, they seem to have used several of the ideas in BeCKS, such as buying spellpoints and contacts with your starting points, and being able to buy resources in increments rather than at several arbitrary values.
Sabosect
Well, to be honest, I always found BeCKS to be too complicated for chargen. Chargen needs to be simplified mainly so that you can teach it to new characters. Leave them to learn the karma system later.
Paul
Scream away.

We love it, especially combined with NSRCG. By far the most versatile and amazing system. We hope to never use anything else.
Paul
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Well, to be honest, I always found BeCKS to be too complicated for chargen. Chargen needs to be simplified mainly so that you can teach it to new characters. Leave them to learn the karma system later.

It's not designed for beginers. At least that's what I thought. But if you use the NSRCG, even beginers do fine. All of my players, including one who hadn't played since first edition made their characters without my help, or with little help the first time.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Paul)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 25 2005, 10:51 PM)
Well, to be honest, I always found BeCKS to be too complicated for chargen. Chargen needs to be simplified mainly so that you can teach it to new characters. Leave them to learn the karma system later.

It's not designed for beginers. At least that's what I thought. But if you use the NSRCG, even beginers do fine. All of my players, including one who hadn't played since first edition made their characters without my help, or with little help the first time.

I know. However, I have a rather random flow of beginners, so whatever chargen I have must allow for them. As for the NSRCG: Thanks, but no thanks. A chargen needs to be able to be useable on its own. Having to add onto it to make it useable is usually the first sign of a bad system.
Paul
Then don't use it is all I have for you.

We've never had any problems with NSRCG, or BeCK's.
Ellery
Point-buy has a flat cost, while karma advancement is progressive.

Mixing the two gives the advantage to characters who take very high and very low values at character creation time and then generalize with karma (as opposed to creating a balanced character at creation and then specializing).

This is just as true for SR4 as for SR3 (with some SR4-specific quirks, such as it being bad to take any 6s at creation time since they cost less with karma, it being better to take skills during creation and attributes with karma, and so on).

If that's not a problem for you, don't use something like BeCKS. If it bothers you, BeCKS is a solution. If there was a reason for BeCKS in SR3, there is still a reason for it with SR4.
blakkie
QUOTE (Elve @ Aug 25 2005, 08:34 PM)
QUOTE (Elve @ Aug 26 2005, 04:21 AM)
PW: Karma

I've done the PW to prevent a half baked product to spread on the net smile.gif

Oh, that's what "PW" means. Thanks.

@Sabosect

It is probably best to think of the computer character generator as being part of BeCKs. Personally i wouldn't use BeCKs without a computer program aid. For that reason i don't think it would have been a good idea for the BBB to use it as the default chargen system. Forcing someone into using a BeCKs-like system would definately run counter to their design goals. But as an optional system that is a take it or leave it situation i'm fine with it.

P.S. All those Furies out there are going to want to figure out the shapeshifter-as
a-PC costs anyway. wink.gif Might as well do it BeCKs costs since they are already going house rules. Shapeshifters are in the BBB with SR4 stats, they just have only been given as NPCs/critters. Same with ghouls. And vampires.
blakkie
Races values might be a touch low. Also this is all skewing the system away from Attributes and Skills, and even moreso Qualities. If we go on the assumption that the original system has the right balance, to get back closer to there i'd maybe do something like adjust the cash to $3500/karma, Contacts to 1.5 karma/level rounded up, and the standard character up to about 500-550 karma.

Also you missed Spells. 5 karma each, right?
Serbitar
BECKS v4 in SR4 is broken because of:

Skill group = 5x New Grade
Attrbiutes = 3x New Grade
Skill = 2x New grade

If you allow to spend as much on attributes as you want nobody would take high skillgroups and skills.
With Attributes that cheap, everybody would max attributes first.

Karma advancement in SR4 is broken, too, in that respect.

I would house rule:

Atrtibutes = 5x New Grade
and grant some more attribute pints from start to compensate.
Triggerz
QUOTE (Serbitar)
BECKS v4 in SR4 is broken because of:

Skill group = 5x New Grade
Attrbiutes = 3x New Grade
Skill = 2x New grade

If you allow to spend as much on attributes as you want nobody would take high skillgroups and skills.
With Attributes that cheap, everybody would max attributes first.

Karma advancement in SR4 is broken, too, in that respect.

I would house rule:

Atrtibutes = 5x New Grade
and grant some more attribute pints from start to compensate.

I agree with 5x(new rating) for attributes. I am planning to houserule it around there. Playing an adept though, I wonder what it will do to my magic rating. frown.gif

Someone mentioned in another thread that you could put more value on skill by, for example, giving different threshold for the same test to people with different skill levels. Example: Computer 3+ Logic 3 = 6 dice vs Computer 1 + Logic 5 = 6 dice. For basic computer tasks, both characters would do just as well, but if the second character is faced with a computer challenge the solution of which requires a deeper understanding and knowledge of computers (i.e. higher skill), then the GM could impose some kind of penalty on the character because his limited computer knowledge leaves him clueless and prevents him from taking full advantage of his high Logic attribute.

I'd rather avoid that kind of adjustments in game, but I guess that can help re-establish the balance between attributes and skills. However, for a great many tests where thresholds and penalties/bonus are already specified in the BBB, such adjustments would be a real PITA if they even make any sense in terms of mechanics. Houseruling attribute costs will probably solve most of the problem, but I won't really know until I've playtested it.
booklord
I was toying with 4x for attributes myself.

I allowed players to use BECKS but I made them use my House-Ruled karma costs. My House Rules choose between the three systems in SR3. ( Priorities, Points, BECKS )

I adjusted karma costs for attributes for metahumans by first subtracting the racial modifier from the attribute then figuring karma costs.

So.....

Taking a troll from Str 9 to str 10 would cost the same as taking a human from Str 5 to Str 6.

and

taking a troll from int 2 to int 3 would cost the same as taking a human from int 4 to int 5.

etc.


I think this house rule will carry over to SR4 as well.
Elve
I've reworked some of the stuff...

Attribute are now x5, Gear is 2500 per karma...

Since I don't have the book yet, i dunno how well the other archetypes transfer...

If someone volunteers to have a look?
Every help is appreciated
Elve
Adjusted MetaTypus cost according to the Boni you would pay to raise their attributes...

Dunno if humans are now way to cheap and good?
Clyde
Maybe I just naturally think backwards, but what about this idea?

Instead of building the character with Karma, why not advance the character with more build points? I mean the whole reason we had BeCKS in the first place was that the Karma system penalized you for creating character with less than the maximum skills. So why use the Karma system at all? I know it creates the possibility of super munchkins hitting their attribute and skill caps fast, but if that's what people want . . .
Paul
Conversely it allows the great gamers in my group to effectively make 75 point characters. Or realistically put together standard 120 point characters. Your right that maybe some people use any system for abuse, but pelase don't assume that is what BeCK's was designed for, or how it is always used.

You'd make Bethyaga cry.
Clyde
No, no. I think you've misread me. I'm talking about the idea of advancing characters with Build Points leading to serious min/maxing issues, not becks. Becks was built to stop that sort of thing and does it very well. wobble.gif
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