In my experience, most runner teams will go through a lot of time and effort to make sure that there is a plan before they start the run, that everything goes according to plan, and that every contingency is planned for.
Of course, this approach is inherently sensible. After all, most shadowrunners want not only to succeed with their missions, but also survive to get paid for it. The problem is that all too frequently, the players spend far more time with planning the run than they actually spend on going through with the plan. And all that planning can get boring...
Have you also experienced this problem? And if so, how have you dealt with it?
Full Version: Overplanning Runs
I've experienced this, but would not call it a problem—our team enjoys it, for the most part.
~J
~J
Boring? That's like the whole point of playing Shadowrun!! Pretending you are a criminal planning to infiltrate a facility or something. It's why people play the game!
However, if you and your players, for some reasonn hate that stuff, just give the runner teams missions in which the infiltration plan is provided by the Johnson. They won't need to plan anymore, just follow orders, and then of course improvise solutions to the curve balls you the GM will undoubtedly want to throw at them.
However, if you and your players, for some reasonn hate that stuff, just give the runner teams missions in which the infiltration plan is provided by the Johnson. They won't need to plan anymore, just follow orders, and then of course improvise solutions to the curve balls you the GM will undoubtedly want to throw at them.
Of course, when the two newbies spend four hours discussing ways to bypass a singular automated weapon turret...
Granted, I don't know how long the actual argument took because I was asleep after the four hour mark.
Overplanning as such is never a bad thing - spending hours haggling over one relatively minor obstacle, on the other hand, is just painful.
-Siege
Granted, I don't know how long the actual argument took because I was asleep after the four hour mark.
Overplanning as such is never a bad thing - spending hours haggling over one relatively minor obstacle, on the other hand, is just painful.
-Siege
"Okay, we wanna hit the StufferShack for a beer run. I'm going to need a three-dimensional blueprint of the entire site, and I want to start 24-hour surveilance. Can my Ork Underground contact tell me if there are any entrances nearby?"
That better be a damned good case of beer. 
-Siege
-Siege
It's certainly not an uncommon problem in convention games. I've had 'runs that felt like the planning should've taken 15 minutes, but it takes 3 hours.
I tend to work by making the situation a bit more dynamic, if they take too much time. So, if it's been 14 hours (game time) since they spoke with a contact, the situation may have changed by the time they go to actually use that information. Similarly, if they spend two hours calling 30 contacts, then word has probably spread on the street that somebody's asking about doing a run on their target. Esepcially if the people they're calling are only level one contacts.
I tend to work by making the situation a bit more dynamic, if they take too much time. So, if it's been 14 hours (game time) since they spoke with a contact, the situation may have changed by the time they go to actually use that information. Similarly, if they spend two hours calling 30 contacts, then word has probably spread on the street that somebody's asking about doing a run on their target. Esepcially if the people they're calling are only level one contacts.
Do you use the Wrong Party rules, or do you just fiat it to mess with them?
~J
~J
I love the Wrong Party rules...
| QUOTE |
| Have you also experienced this problem? And if so, how have you dealt with it? |
YES I HAVE! The most common causes in my experience are as follows.
- Players are VERY easily spooked off of plans. Real example: The Johnson told us about when some garbagemen showed up. Since they weren't the guys who were expected, they were immediately shot. This spooked us off of any sort of social infiltration in favor of a more Special Forces-type dealie. In fact, the way we were SUPPOSED to do it was a social infiltration of sorts. Hard outside, gooey inside. Once we were in, it'd all be cool but since we were spooked, we never considered it. If you have a specific way in mind for them to do the job, DO NOT IN ANY WAY DISCOURAGE IT!
- The GM really does require these elaborate plans to get things done. If the GM allows the players to get away with vague out-line like plans, then that's all they'll do. If when they try that they get screwed by the GM, they start making elaborate plans that include continegncys for Ghostwalker showing up and attacking the facility.
- The players all want to work their character in. This is one of the funnier ways plans get torpedoed. The player starts objecting to every possible flaw in the plan, but his real objection is that his character isn't involved in it at all. You can get away with basically leaving a character out once in a while, but when a player gets consistently screwed out of play time you either need to have him make a new char or reconsider how you build runs.
- The Paranoid Schizophrenic. He assumes everyone is out to get him and that every facility has a top-of-the-line security system. There are invisible laser trip wires across every floor and gas vents on every ceiling. The Johnson is obviously lying about everything. They MUST know we're coming. This player is more destructive than a thermo-nuclear bomb when it comes to the flow of a game. If you in any way, shape, or form encourage this player, you deserve to be shot for creating a monster. These people really will do exactly what AH said and make entry and exit plans for every single goddamn building you remotely suggest they enter. They turn quick meets with contacts into elaborate plans involving gerbils, kill switches, and Cthulhu.
Overplanning will happen if players know or suspect that the GM will screw over the PCs heavily for lack of planning/misplanning. The reason for this is that the cost of planning is much less than the cost of a messed up run. Shadowrun is especially prone to this as the characters are doing illegal things all the time and the other side has accessed to modern or better than modern means of dealing with them. Constant backstabbings and super sercuity systems will make overplanning even worse.
The best way to reduce overplanning is to talk to the players about it. Tell them that you think there is too much unneeded planning and want it reduced. In exchange, you'll screw them over less for misplanning (for example instead being killed though overwhelming force for missing the tripwire, they get a nice fun firefight).
The best way to reduce overplanning is to talk to the players about it. Tell them that you think there is too much unneeded planning and want it reduced. In exchange, you'll screw them over less for misplanning (for example instead being killed though overwhelming force for missing the tripwire, they get a nice fun firefight).
I think that overplanning frequently happens, where players spend a disproportionate amount of time to address a relatively simple matter.
I think it happens because there are many heads and once they start discussing and arguing it'll go back and forth forever. That's how group dynamics often realistically work.
I just sit there with a poker face, myself, if I'm the GM. If they want to spend 2 hours planning how they're going to walk into an unguarded insecure building, that's their perogative.
I think it happens because there are many heads and once they start discussing and arguing it'll go back and forth forever. That's how group dynamics often realistically work.
I just sit there with a poker face, myself, if I'm the GM. If they want to spend 2 hours planning how they're going to walk into an unguarded insecure building, that's their perogative.
Overplanning absolutely happens. In a previous campaign, I had a player become so obsessed with minutae that he was asking me what company supplied the cement during construction of the office building they were hitting. Ultimately, it's one of those things that varies by style and needs to be addressed by the GM at the start of the campaign.
A friend of mine ran a campaign that was very, very big on legwork and pre-run planning. That was, for the most part, the game. There's nothing wrong with that (well, all of us sucked at it, but that's a different matter) at all, as long as you know you're supposed to plan for everything possible.
I run things a lot looser and have told my players that I prefer the PCs thinking on their feet instead of long, drawn out siege plans prior to the run. I tend to abide by the Farscape model of dramatics (Crichton, under fire: "Why do our plans always suck?!"). So long as the players know this and are happy to work with it, this, too, is fine.
A friend of mine ran a campaign that was very, very big on legwork and pre-run planning. That was, for the most part, the game. There's nothing wrong with that (well, all of us sucked at it, but that's a different matter) at all, as long as you know you're supposed to plan for everything possible.
I run things a lot looser and have told my players that I prefer the PCs thinking on their feet instead of long, drawn out siege plans prior to the run. I tend to abide by the Farscape model of dramatics (Crichton, under fire: "Why do our plans always suck?!"). So long as the players know this and are happy to work with it, this, too, is fine.
I remember this one time a Shadowrun friend of mine ran a D&D campaign. It opened with a SR style warehouse infiltration. I kept saying, "It's D&D, not SR, so we don't need to plan", and proceeded to slaughter, like, every NPC.
And because it was D&D, it actually worked.
And because it was D&D, it actually worked.
My group overplans OOC but not IC. For example, 1 hour after accepting the run, they would have hit the appropriate contacts. 2 hours later, they would be simming the run in a virtual environment created by the decker with the information gathered.
When I try to tell them about "best laid plans", they interrupt me with "people with best laid plans get laid, people without them get dead." But there are some times that I simply do not allow them to plan so much, "You must deploy NOW! The clock is ticking!"
When I try to tell them about "best laid plans", they interrupt me with "people with best laid plans get laid, people without them get dead." But there are some times that I simply do not allow them to plan so much, "You must deploy NOW! The clock is ticking!"
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I've experienced this, but would not call it a problem—our team enjoys it, for the most part. ~J |
This would make me the least part. It seems (to me anyway) that whenever we have a session involving run prep or actual running, we spend two hours 'planning' our next move, 5-10 minutes making our move, and the next two hours 'planning' our new next move. My only consolation is that it's an online campaign so I can do other stuff while the others debate the merits of parking 10 meters from the target building versus parking 12 meters from the target building.
Heh. Should have clarified that I was primarily talking about the Tuesday game—though if I'd been thinking about it enough to clarify I would have expanded it to include Thursday and Saturday. You're right, we do bog a bit, but I think that'll get better if we can get another solid player in—someone else to bounce ideas off of, as it were.
I should call up our errant duo…
~J
I should call up our errant duo…
~J
Kill switches and gerbils? Ooooh...I kinda wish I still played...this has potential.
And I've only asked about the plasticrete company once...twice, tops.
10 meters versus 12 meters? Oh yeah, been there - snoozed through that.
The other problem - sloppy players accuse GMs of being out to get them and retaliate with extreme minutiae and details in every possible instance.
Commonly referred to "the speed of snail snot down a rope" syndrome - wanting, needing and abusing every possible rule available.
-Siege
And I've only asked about the plasticrete company once...twice, tops.
10 meters versus 12 meters? Oh yeah, been there - snoozed through that.
The other problem - sloppy players accuse GMs of being out to get them and retaliate with extreme minutiae and details in every possible instance.
Commonly referred to "the speed of snail snot down a rope" syndrome - wanting, needing and abusing every possible rule available.
-Siege
Ya know, for all the effort my group puts into planning, I can't recall a single plan that ever actually was successful. Usually, someone would screw up somewhere and the plan would be the first casualty of the resulting firefight. Afterwards, everything was always done on the fly.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Ya know, for all the effort my group puts into planning, I can't recall a single plan that ever actually was successful. Usually, someone would screw up somewhere and the plan would be the first casualty of the resulting firefight. Afterwards, everything was always done on the fly. |
"No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy."
-Old military axiom, I believe
Actually if you plan enough, you would eventually be able to cover almost all the contingencies. For example if A meets X, A does Y, if A do not succeed in Y, then B does Z... on and on.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Actually if you plan enough, you would eventually be able to cover almost all the contingencies. For example if A meets X, A does Y, if A do not succeed in Y, then B does Z... on and on. |
That would require infinite planning. Infinite planning is beyond the capibilities of most sentient beings. Totems and other Deities might be able to accomplish it, but maybe not.
No matter how much you plan there will always be one cintigency that you don't plan for. Very few people plan for FSM, for example.
One of the problems a lot of groups have with planning is that they don't have a very good 'framework' for generating plans, and the group dosen't have a many standard operating procedures.
Take a house clearing drill, if everyone on the team (both players and characters) have developed standard precodures who does what and when then the whole operation may be planned and carried out with just a few hand gestures.
This is one of the reasons why 'pick up' teams tend to be such a bad idea, if you have no idea what the idiot next to you is going to do, you have to watch what he is doing as well as your own sector of responsibility.
[edit]
Complex contingency plans are usually a pretty crappy way to go, as thinking about what is planned next takes a lot of mental energy away from actually doing your job. Having many 'drills' is a much better way of getting the job done. You already know what drill to do if X happens, so you no longer need to spend as much time thinking about X, you just do the drill.
This will tend to produce an organization that is very 'instantly' flexible in what it can do. However, it can produce a problem in that exactly what you are going to do when X happens can become predictable. This is, in part, why groups should 'cross train' against each other organizations (which have slightly different action drills), so that your actions are never limited to a slaveish devotion to your own action drills.
[/edit]
Take a house clearing drill, if everyone on the team (both players and characters) have developed standard precodures who does what and when then the whole operation may be planned and carried out with just a few hand gestures.
This is one of the reasons why 'pick up' teams tend to be such a bad idea, if you have no idea what the idiot next to you is going to do, you have to watch what he is doing as well as your own sector of responsibility.
[edit]
Complex contingency plans are usually a pretty crappy way to go, as thinking about what is planned next takes a lot of mental energy away from actually doing your job. Having many 'drills' is a much better way of getting the job done. You already know what drill to do if X happens, so you no longer need to spend as much time thinking about X, you just do the drill.
This will tend to produce an organization that is very 'instantly' flexible in what it can do. However, it can produce a problem in that exactly what you are going to do when X happens can become predictable. This is, in part, why groups should 'cross train' against each other organizations (which have slightly different action drills), so that your actions are never limited to a slaveish devotion to your own action drills.
[/edit]
For a long time when I was GMing Shadowrun I tried to create planning and tactical challenges for players. So, I'd have security setups which were the best that I could come up with, and it'd be up to the players to figure out a way through. Or I'd predetermine a reasonable amount of enemy soldiers for the situation (based on the resistance they expected), decide a reasonable basic plan of attack for them, and let the dice fall where they may, so it'd be up to the players to win or escape by virtue of sound strategy.
Thing is, there was one player who was a great guy but who didn't feel very confident about his strategy and tactics, and basically just wanted "easy" situations.
So, this created a certain amount of difference between what the various players wanted from their game. Usually, the other players would spend a great deal of time planning things, see.
Thing is, there was one player who was a great guy but who didn't feel very confident about his strategy and tactics, and basically just wanted "easy" situations.
So, this created a certain amount of difference between what the various players wanted from their game. Usually, the other players would spend a great deal of time planning things, see.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| No matter how much you plan there will always be one cintigency that you don't plan for. Very few people plan for FSM, for example. |
You mean the contingency that you cannot do anything about anyway? Sure, there's always that. But since you can't do anything, then why plan for that? I think that is the only contingency the group I GM doesn't plan for. That and everything going to plan, of course.
What I do (as the GM) is have a basic idea of what I want the run to go like, and what can and very likely will go wrong. I then listen to the planning (sometimes even contributing obvious things), and adjust how I'm going execute my idea and what can go wrong. Usually they feel justified in the planning, because the plans actually helped. Of course, this is because the run was ever so slightly adjusted to suit the plan.
Example: There was a guy they needed to take care of. He worked on the top floor of a 5-story building, and wouldn't be leaving that building until he was finished working on his project. He needed to be killed prior to finishing. (The johnson was for someone who wanted to finish the project, and thus take credit for it, but wasn't project lead, and so wouldn't get any credit). The PC's were under orders not to harm (permanantly or 2-days short term -- i.e. if it takes 2 days or longer to heal, it's too much harm) anybody else (the johnson needed his subordinants and didn't want to be hurt himself, but he also didn't want to give away the fact that someone else working in the building was funding the run).
I figured security was tough, the building was nice and wired, and linked to the matrix (because of remote monitoring). The easiest way in was to pretend to be cleaning/maintenence and sleaze your way in. Exit will be difficult, unless you have a subtle kill (relativly slow poison, kill in the bathroom and leave in the stall, after setting of a stink bomb, ect). Since this is thinky work, mere hospitalization would allow him to continue the project unless he was actually unconcious (ah, the lovely data-jack), so killing him is the easiest route.
I figured the biggest Snag would be exit and difficult timing (i.e. it would be hard to leave undetected, and it would be difficult to get him in possition easily -- he might not want any coffee, not need to go to the bathroom, ect).
-------
During the course of the planning, the decker scoured the city archives and discovered it was a post-matrix building (so it's fully wired -- even the lights) and the matrix trunk for the building is accessable via a utility tunnel. With some scouting, they discovered it wasn't guarded or monitored in any way, and they could knock down the locked door with a sledgehammer and nobody would be the wiser. The troubleshooting jack wasn't disabled, so he got full access to building systems without having to go through the firewall node.
They decided the way they were going to get the target accessable was to set off fire alarms and get the building evacuated. There were two fire exits on opposite sides of the building and one sniper, so they had the troll and physical adept cover the least likely exit, and the sniper got the more likely exit.
They set off the fire alarm, and sounded the evacuation. Because a Snag was difficult timing, it took about 7 minutes to evacuate everyone (as the project lead on the top floor, the target was about the last to leave), so the sniper has pretty big TNs to hit just the target and nobody else, and the fire department arrived, partially blocking the shot, increasing the TNs even more. Because of the Exit snag, by the time the sniper took the shot (at -1 TN for each simple action spent aiming, it took about 1/2 a minute), A lonestar patrol vehicle had arrived.
They had to evade lonestar (after conferring over coms to decide to take the shot anyway), and the run was good.
------------------
Long story short, I used their overplanning to my advantage. I didn't use it to screw them (I had already determined the Snags, after all), I just used it to give what appeared to be a very well thought out run that, because of their planning, went alot smoother than it could have. By not having every little detail planned out ahead of time, I don't have to railroad my players, but by having the major points -- objective, potential execution, and Snags -- ahead of time, I didn't screw them with the planning as would be so easy to subconciously do if I didn't do that ahead of time.
Example: There was a guy they needed to take care of. He worked on the top floor of a 5-story building, and wouldn't be leaving that building until he was finished working on his project. He needed to be killed prior to finishing. (The johnson was for someone who wanted to finish the project, and thus take credit for it, but wasn't project lead, and so wouldn't get any credit). The PC's were under orders not to harm (permanantly or 2-days short term -- i.e. if it takes 2 days or longer to heal, it's too much harm) anybody else (the johnson needed his subordinants and didn't want to be hurt himself, but he also didn't want to give away the fact that someone else working in the building was funding the run).
I figured security was tough, the building was nice and wired, and linked to the matrix (because of remote monitoring). The easiest way in was to pretend to be cleaning/maintenence and sleaze your way in. Exit will be difficult, unless you have a subtle kill (relativly slow poison, kill in the bathroom and leave in the stall, after setting of a stink bomb, ect). Since this is thinky work, mere hospitalization would allow him to continue the project unless he was actually unconcious (ah, the lovely data-jack), so killing him is the easiest route.
I figured the biggest Snag would be exit and difficult timing (i.e. it would be hard to leave undetected, and it would be difficult to get him in possition easily -- he might not want any coffee, not need to go to the bathroom, ect).
-------
During the course of the planning, the decker scoured the city archives and discovered it was a post-matrix building (so it's fully wired -- even the lights) and the matrix trunk for the building is accessable via a utility tunnel. With some scouting, they discovered it wasn't guarded or monitored in any way, and they could knock down the locked door with a sledgehammer and nobody would be the wiser. The troubleshooting jack wasn't disabled, so he got full access to building systems without having to go through the firewall node.
They decided the way they were going to get the target accessable was to set off fire alarms and get the building evacuated. There were two fire exits on opposite sides of the building and one sniper, so they had the troll and physical adept cover the least likely exit, and the sniper got the more likely exit.
They set off the fire alarm, and sounded the evacuation. Because a Snag was difficult timing, it took about 7 minutes to evacuate everyone (as the project lead on the top floor, the target was about the last to leave), so the sniper has pretty big TNs to hit just the target and nobody else, and the fire department arrived, partially blocking the shot, increasing the TNs even more. Because of the Exit snag, by the time the sniper took the shot (at -1 TN for each simple action spent aiming, it took about 1/2 a minute), A lonestar patrol vehicle had arrived.
They had to evade lonestar (after conferring over coms to decide to take the shot anyway), and the run was good.
------------------
Long story short, I used their overplanning to my advantage. I didn't use it to screw them (I had already determined the Snags, after all), I just used it to give what appeared to be a very well thought out run that, because of their planning, went alot smoother than it could have. By not having every little detail planned out ahead of time, I don't have to railroad my players, but by having the major points -- objective, potential execution, and Snags -- ahead of time, I didn't screw them with the planning as would be so easy to subconciously do if I didn't do that ahead of time.
| QUOTE (CirclMastr) |
| This would make me the least part. It seems (to me anyway) that whenever we have a session involving run prep or actual running, we spend two hours 'planning' our next move, 5-10 minutes making our move, and the next two hours 'planning' our new next move. My only consolation is that it's an online campaign so I can do other stuff while the others debate the merits of parking 10 meters from the target building versus parking 12 meters from the target building. |
The fact that most of our sessions are ~3 hours leads me to the inevitable conclusion that you're exaggerating a bit.
And the fact it is an online game has a big impact on how long planning a run takes - you get information at a much slower speed than you would when sitting around a table.
We do sometimes dither a bit, but considering that 2 out of 3 of our team members are a face/conjurer and a B&E guy that don't stand up all that well to getting shot at, that's not really surprising - we're not meant to take the direct approach to anything... Which makes it hard on your character, but that's what happens when you dump all your points into being an almost unkillable guy with a sword.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
You mean the contingency that you cannot do anything about anyway? Sure, there's always that. But since you can't do anything, then why plan for that? I think that is the only contingency the group I GM doesn't plan for. That and everything going to plan, of course. |
Actually, I mean the contingency that is so fragging improbable that no onw would plan for it. Flying Spaghetti Monster is just one example.
Really, you overplan when that plan prevents you from adapting to unplanned situations.
Whenever someone types FSM I think "Federated States of Micronesia", rather than "Flying Spaghetti Monster."
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage!
I've seen some overplanning done in my time. The funny part is when they plan for four hours and then find out they missed something so obvious that the run abuot falls apart anyway . . .
I've seen some overplanning done in my time. The funny part is when they plan for four hours and then find out they missed something so obvious that the run abuot falls apart anyway . . .
I find that usually my players are pretty rational, however they seem to have contingency plans for weird things. Once they asked their contact if the facility had any magical defenses, his response was "I didn't see any" which they took to mean "TONS", and then where suprised when there where not any.
The weird ones to deal with are when your players (Who I love like brothers if any of them are reading this) plan for a run the way I imagine Rube Goldberg would.
...Ok, so when you run into the mob bar, steal a poolball from their pool table, when they chase you, run out and into this car...etc
The weird ones to deal with are when your players (Who I love like brothers if any of them are reading this) plan for a run the way I imagine Rube Goldberg would.
...Ok, so when you run into the mob bar, steal a poolball from their pool table, when they chase you, run out and into this car...etc
Well, last campaign (which just ended) I played an uncommonly intelligent *and* over-paranoid decker. As such I tried to come up with good-but-unexpected, in-character advice to give other PCs when the situation called for it. Other times, based on the character, that meant submitting wildly improbable stuff and seeing if people would go with it. It did end up a lot like Rude Goldberg sometimes. But we did have *1* almost flawless run (Orichalcum heist on an English blimp) because of excessive planning. Still, the team ended up winging their way through a bunch of it.
And I think that's the best way to deal with more-than-necessary planning. Throw in something unexpected. IE the first third of the run goes like clockwork, but then it turns out it's a setup by a third party and everything is screwed (but the players can still get out, with some new toys and Johnson, if they're quick on their feet.) Everyone loves a good plot twist, as long as it isn't cheap.
If the unexpected keeps happening, and it's plausible, hopefully the overplanners will scale back without thinking about it. Of course, they could become even more paranoid or have another extreme reaction, but there are ways to deal with those things, too.
Next campaign, my character will be totally different, and probably won't participate much in any planning. Things could get interesting when the team is asking if anyone has any bright ideas. =P
And I think that's the best way to deal with more-than-necessary planning. Throw in something unexpected. IE the first third of the run goes like clockwork, but then it turns out it's a setup by a third party and everything is screwed (but the players can still get out, with some new toys and Johnson, if they're quick on their feet.) Everyone loves a good plot twist, as long as it isn't cheap.
If the unexpected keeps happening, and it's plausible, hopefully the overplanners will scale back without thinking about it. Of course, they could become even more paranoid or have another extreme reaction, but there are ways to deal with those things, too.
Next campaign, my character will be totally different, and probably won't participate much in any planning. Things could get interesting when the team is asking if anyone has any bright ideas. =P
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