Ok I've been taking my time with SOA but focused on India because I like what Synner has done in the past. and my best friend in college was from india and so I got a good exposure to the culture.
A couple of comments to float out there.
I liked the stress on castes. Dispite the fact Indians see the 1857 rebellion as the first burst of nationalism the truth was it was back sliding to the older ways and it would make sense for this to happen again if we have the huge backslide of VITAS etc. Though it seems that sutee has been eliminated but what about the sexism endemic today?
One thing about talented people born to a lower caste, they may flee india to the west where they can be appreciated and get away from the limited system. The best example of this are the Gurkas of the British army. These men from Nepal most are from a caste that would not allow them to be warriors in Nepal but they are famous for their fighting ability in the service of the British army.
Bollywood-two things that have to be known about Bolliwood. It is not just like Hollywood. 1) Sex. Bollywood films are chaste. Even today, RL 2005, a couple does not even kiss on screen. It would be scandalous. Women are expected to give up their careers when they wed, so no Jennifer Anniston/Britney Spears hype after they wed. that is the end of their careers and most public interest.
2)Music. Bollywood has lots of singing and dancing. Like hollywood films in the 1930's. This means productions will have fewer f/x and more music, choreographers and set designers. All targets for runs.
What other observations do others have?
Full Version: SOA- India
New York Times had an interesting article recently about your first Bollywood point and about how some are trying to change it a bit. But it does show how deeply the traditions run, even among those trying to break them.
Bollywood films are so chaste that protagonists aren't even allowed to kiss (on the mouth) on screen (this is actually another throwback to the inter-caste relation prohibitions and particularly physical contact between different caste born).
As Snow pointed out people in Bollywood films have the habit of spontaneously breaking out into song and dance (even in action and cops flicks) every 15 minutes (massive dance productions every time which would rival 1930-40's Hollywood) and films have a typical running time of 3.5 hours (going to the movies is a huge social thing and "audience participation" is significant - people actually get up and applaud at the end of a particular touching scene or good song).
There's another interesting thing about Bollywood which is only really understandable in a Hindu context... whereas in the West some movie stars move on to become politicians (although this also happens in India) there are actually Bollywood movie stars who are believed to be gods incarnate. They have huge shrines and people pay tribute to them in the thousands. Honest.
Hope you liked Snow.
[edited]
As Snow pointed out people in Bollywood films have the habit of spontaneously breaking out into song and dance (even in action and cops flicks) every 15 minutes (massive dance productions every time which would rival 1930-40's Hollywood) and films have a typical running time of 3.5 hours (going to the movies is a huge social thing and "audience participation" is significant - people actually get up and applaud at the end of a particular touching scene or good song).
There's another interesting thing about Bollywood which is only really understandable in a Hindu context... whereas in the West some movie stars move on to become politicians (although this also happens in India) there are actually Bollywood movie stars who are believed to be gods incarnate. They have huge shrines and people pay tribute to them in the thousands. Honest.
Hope you liked Snow.
[edited]
Isn't it chaste, like in chastity belt? And of course, caste for different levels of society.
Perfectly right. Fixed.
yep. I fixed mine too, thanks.
Synner, you got billing before the Japan section.
Synner, you got billing before the Japan section.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Bollywood which is only really understandable in a Hindu context... whereas in the West some movie stars move on to become politicians (although this also happens in India) there are actually Bollywood movie stars who are believed to be gods incarnate. They have huge shrines and people pay tribute to them in the thousands. Honest. |
This reminds me: if there is a Hell, Salman Rushdie should be condemned to it.
Having lived in India for a while myself it is the first section I read as well. Mumbai is the RL commercial center of India, however all the tech is down south as the book has it. Bollywood movies are an experience if you've never seen them. It's like a music video is directly inserted into the film. The caste system today is a little more flexible in the urban areas, but even today 75% of India is rural. Currently there are 26 languages with over a million speakers. I think the book has 15 or 16. It also said 60% of the population speaks Hindi, IRL today it is about 30%. The book also had the average per capita income as 
10. That has to be a typo, but it is probably not too much off. You can also see how stratifed Indian society is. Look at the amount of high school graduates, it's not much at all. Then look at those who have not finished high school and those who have advanced degrees. This is very accurate today. Many regions have their own stereotypes too. Bengalis are known for being academic, Punjabies are known for being militant, ect...
10. That has to be a typo, but it is probably not too much off. You can also see how stratifed Indian society is. Look at the amount of high school graduates, it's not much at all. Then look at those who have not finished high school and those who have advanced degrees. This is very accurate today. Many regions have their own stereotypes too. Bengalis are known for being academic, Punjabies are known for being militant, ect...
I must say the India region is one of the best written, I've read so far...
(Currently reading Middle East, which is somehow more or less boring)
(Currently reading Middle East, which is somehow more or less boring)
Nice to see you guys liked it. Making SR India come alive was something of a labor of love, something I've been wanting to do since I wrapped Shadows of Europe. It helps that the source is just so interesting. Unfortunately there was only so much space and so much to cover. Even though I had to boil down many of the tips of the hat to Indian and Orientalist references that I wanted to include to one off references, this is one of my favorite pieces of writing so far and I hope people like it too.
A couple of notes to help complement the portrait. Keep in mind the stat boxes and setting text offers estimates and only really focus on the major groupings (ie. 15 official languages and English is a current gov. statistics, only major faiths, etc). Coming up with any kind of reasonable stat for India is always a risky venture though. Remember: with a population this big 1 million speakers or faithful is a small minority.
For instance while only about 36% of the general population speak Hindi, around 50% understand it and can make themselves understood. It's also the official language taught and used in most government sponsored literacy programmes. It doesn't help matters that a number of "languages" are in fact local dialects and variants and so aren't officially recognized beyond provincial borders.
The per capita income is a typo (mea culpa) it should have been 120Y (annual).
The education figures were derived from current day figures taking into account the VITAS plagues and the skewing a full caste revival would cause (including brain drain of the lower castes).
A couple of notes to help complement the portrait. Keep in mind the stat boxes and setting text offers estimates and only really focus on the major groupings (ie. 15 official languages and English is a current gov. statistics, only major faiths, etc). Coming up with any kind of reasonable stat for India is always a risky venture though. Remember: with a population this big 1 million speakers or faithful is a small minority.
For instance while only about 36% of the general population speak Hindi, around 50% understand it and can make themselves understood. It's also the official language taught and used in most government sponsored literacy programmes. It doesn't help matters that a number of "languages" are in fact local dialects and variants and so aren't officially recognized beyond provincial borders.
The per capita income is a typo (mea culpa) it should have been 120Y (annual).
The education figures were derived from current day figures taking into account the VITAS plagues and the skewing a full caste revival would cause (including brain drain of the lower castes).
Ok, i Dont have SoA yet, but I was wondering, how many ED refrences are there? A couple in the whole book? none? a couple in each section?
There are numerous ED tie-ins (rather than outright references) sprinkled through-out the book, some more obvious than others. A few can indeed be found in the India chapter (blatant plug)...
I like the section. Like i said I have some experience from a great friend, but I hate indian food.
I would have added osmething about sexism though. My friend was the daughter of doctors. inteliigent,wealthy but came back from a vacation between junior and senior year and her big comment was swearing about the men she was introduced to who were all chauvanists who expected her, a modern woman who lived in Boston, to defer to them and walk behind them. That was in the last 20th century. If they are going back to a tighter castev system I would fully expect the sexism to run riot.
Synner. I was wondering about the gods. with all chuckles towards the Beatles, what about Kali-ma? She is very popular among North American Wiccas as an all mother/crone/death goddess depending on your interpretation. Basically the discipliarian mother who will beat you if you step out of line but will eviserate those who threaten her children.
The potential there for spiirts, I mean avatars, should be impressive.
I would have added osmething about sexism though. My friend was the daughter of doctors. inteliigent,wealthy but came back from a vacation between junior and senior year and her big comment was swearing about the men she was introduced to who were all chauvanists who expected her, a modern woman who lived in Boston, to defer to them and walk behind them. That was in the last 20th century. If they are going back to a tighter castev system I would fully expect the sexism to run riot.
Synner. I was wondering about the gods. with all chuckles towards the Beatles, what about Kali-ma? She is very popular among North American Wiccas as an all mother/crone/death goddess depending on your interpretation. Basically the discipliarian mother who will beat you if you step out of line but will eviserate those who threaten her children.
The potential there for spiirts, I mean avatars, should be impressive.
India was one of my three favorite sections. My girlfriend is heavily involved with the Indian culture, and liked the section as well.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Aug 30 2005, 10:47 PM) |
| I like the section. Like i said I have some experience from a great friend, but I hate indian food. |
I love Indian food
| QUOTE |
| Synner. I was wondering about the gods. with all chuckles towards the Beatles, what about Kali-ma? She is very popular among North American Wiccas as an all mother/crone/death goddess depending on your interpretation. Basically the discipliarian mother who will beat you if you step out of line but will eviserate those who threaten her children. |
Well, I could have written another chapter just on how fitting the Hindu system is with the Sixth World cosmology. As it is I ended up focusing on the Trimurti (old and new) and the fact that Hindus believe the divine is in everything (animals, people, ashuras and gods are all just different levels of the same existance). I did manage to squeeze in some appropriate references to the main figures of the pantheon in the timeline though
.Regarding Kali. There's a lot of misunderstandings about the Black Goddess and particularly about Western interpretations of her (which often confuse her with Parvati's other emanation Durga - goddess of war, beautiful avenger and demonslayer). In Hindu lore Kali-ma is the dark mother, berserker warrior, destroyer, entropy and death. She is actually a lower emanation (one of several manifestations) of Shiva's dutiful wife Parvati (who in turn is an emanation of Mahadevi) and like Shiva her role in the cosmos is to embody the forces of chaos and death in the cycle of life (the Wheel) - there is a definite parallel with the goddess Hel of Nordic legend.
Her popularity is also misleading since she is a minor player in the Hindu pantheon's hierarchy. Her big moment is when she was called forth by the gods to defend them against a horde of invading rakashas/demons. She wins the fight but is so drunk with bloodlust and berserker she continues her dance of devastation until she almost destroys the world - Shiva intervenes to break her from the dance's spell.
Durga (sometimes known as Kali-Durga) on the other hand is Parvati's guardian/protector avatar/emanation, the Warrior Queen and beautiful avenger of injustice. She's the protective mother type.
The all mother figure in Hindu lore is mostly reserved to Mahadevi (lit. Great Goddess)/Devi/Shakti. She's the true fertility mother figure and embodies the essence of the world. The more liberal-minded Hindus and many women venerate Devi on par with the Trimurti (the Hindu holy trinity of high gods: Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma).
| QUOTE |
| The potential there for spirits, I mean avatars, should be impressive. |
I mention this the text but the relations between gods, avatars, ashuras and humans are very interesting to play off.
Thanks for the update on Kali. I thought maybe it was a case of some Wiccans running amok with a barely understood image. I always had a problem invoking her. I could understand the image of the "Kali-ma" but could not call upon her without thinking of an old 60's movie that would make me crack up at the thought. Remember:
"He who wears the Ring!"
"He who wears the Ring!"
"Paint him red....then kill him!"
Oh good, I'm not alone with that one. 
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