I haven't got my copy yet, so I'm only going off the distilled wisdom of Dumpshock here, but did I correctly hear somewhere that Shamans resist spellcasting drain with Willpower + Charisma, while Mages use Willpower + Logic?

That seems odd to me. For three reasons. Firstly, from a mechanics point of view, it would make more sense if shamans used Intuition: They were both part of the old intelligence, and it is thus nicely symmetrical.

Secondly, from a logical point of view, at least in my opinion, hunches, gut feelings and other intuitive behaviour would seem to fit the shamanic profile more than strength of personality.

Thirdly, shamans only need two attributes to be good at both Conjuring and Spellcasting, while mages need three!

Oh, yeah, and as a sort-of-fourth reason, my munchkin players (You know who you are) are all wetting themselves at the possibility of elvish shamans now. I heard one say they were "the new dwarves".

Am I alone in this belief? Am I actually wrong, and it is Intuition? Is there something else that balances all this out that I'm missing? If there isn't, does anyone else think houseruling shamans to Intuition (which has the benefit of facilitating powerful orkish shamans, a concept I prefer over the elvish ones) would be a smart idea?

Oh, and one last thing, since from what I hear the tradition boundaries have been weakened, shamans can now Bind spirits, and mages can now have Mentor Spirits, where's the line drawn, anyway?

I don't have access to the actual pdf/book, but in the "DAQ: SR4 attempted summary" -thread it's indeed said that Shamans use Willpower + Charisma for drain resistance. I had the same instant reaction: it would sound more logical if it was Intuition instead of Charisma. I have no experience from playtesting naturally, but everything says that Shamans are intuitive and Mages are logical. Doubling Charisma also as the other stat in Drain resistance seems to help Shamans, in addition to sounding weird.

Well, Charisma can also be represented as a strength of personality, the ability to make others do what you want. Charisma as a drain attribute is simply an extension of this... instead of making others do what you want, you make the universe do what you want.

While Charisma may make for better Summoners and certainly gives a nice bonus for Social skills, having a higher Logic attribute gives more benefits for Knowledge skills and other skills that have direct Sixth World applications (Data Search and Computer comes to mind). Not to mention the fact that you can use Cerebral Booster to boost your Logic and increase your Drain-related dice pool using Bioware.

In any case, "liking" Intuition for drain doesn't make it the "right" answer, and while you are free to house-rule this in your games, I can definitely see how Charisma would work better than Intuition.

It's okay, though--there are a ton of Logic-linked skills. Where the shaman receives the synergy with summoning, the hermetic gets to be good at all sorts of technical tasks.

I'm not sure this was intentional--it doesn't seem to obviously fit the setting--but that's the way it worked out.

Well, technophile Hermetics are all over the previous Shadowrun literature (Hermetics preferring to keep their libraries on chip, that sort of thing). Unnecessary "flava" if they added it solely for that reason, but I think the Willpower + Extra Mental Stat drain thing works well, especially as a dividing line between traditions (blurred as they are in SR4 and the UMT in SOTA:2064).

Sure, but the Logic-linked skills are Academic Knowledge, Aeronautics Mechanic, Armorer, Automotive Mechanic, Computer, Cybertechnology, Cybercombat, Data Search, Demolitions, Electronic Warfare, First Aid, Industrial Mechanic, Hacking, Hardware, Medicine, Nautical Mechanic, Professional Knowledge, and Software.

That's a little beyond the scope of most hermetic mages, I think. I guess there'll be a lot of rigger/hermetics now?

You did list off Computer. That should count for the "technophile Hermetic Chaos Mage" stereotype quite nicely.

I'm not saying that some of the categories aren't appropriate. I'm saying that they'll be really good at all these things, many of which are very un-magelike.

Un-mage-like in the SR universe stereotype sense, absolutely. However, I can see a sufficiently motivated Hermetic with Analyze Device taking an interest in mechanics, or a Hermetic/Engineer who is forever trying to combine his art with his craft. These would be exceptions rather than the rule, of course. There aren't enough Build Points or Karma to construct a character that is good in everything anyway, and at the very least, the Drain mechanic sort of shoves shamans and hermetics into the divides that are classically portrayed in the SR universe through trid shows like the Odd Coven (party social Shamans, geeky nerd Hermetics).

So mages aren't as good at magic, but they're really good at everything else that requires a brain? That doesn't make all that much sense.

Besides, total up all those logic skills and remove the ones that should be used by someone specialised in them, or someone with cyber.

Now weigh how useful those will be in a standard campaign against, say... Etiquette, Conjuring and Negotation.

I've never really liked the idea of Charisma as force-of-personality. When you're talking about Sorcerers in That Other Game, it could be said to make sense, because those poor people don't have a Willpower stat. But our fair young system has stats aplenty! No need to double up. Charisma should incorporate confidence, certainly, but confidence doesn't sound like it would let you cast spells better.

Anyway, a mage who really focusses on his or her magic above all else, which I'd imagine is not at all a rare thing, particularly among the powergamer crowd, isn't going to accept technical ability as a fair trade, especially as starting stats are so sparse now.

[Edit: Oh, yes, and Intuition is used in Initiative, that seems a fair trade for the skills to me.]

Mages not as good at magic? What are you talking about?

Actually, being a Hermetic can be a powergaming trade, if you take gear into consideration. Cerebral Booster affects Logic, which in turn affects Drain, but there are no bioware/cyberware mods that are particularly useful for Shamans. Of course, you take a hit in a point of Magic, but a Hermetic can potentially roll 15 dice or more for Drain at character creation.

Charisma as Force of Personality doesn't mean "my will is strong". It means that you somehow, nebulously and inexplicably, can get others to do what you want. That doesn't necessarily mean you are seductive or your words melt people's brains into drone-like obediance or you are the nicest guy on the planet (although any of these can be good explanations). You can be a total asshole, but if you know how to get people to do what you want, you have Charisma. Most people think of the "smooth talking gambler" when they think of Charisma, but that's just a high Con skill (previously Fasttalk specialization of Negotiations). A successful office middle manager is more like it... he's incompetant at most things, but he is able to get everyone else to do the work that needs to be done, even if the whole office hates him.

Charisma now isn't used in Conjuring at all? Interesting, I wasn't aware of that.

Well, there goes about half my motivation for this change. But it also lowers the stakes. I'm going to have to make a bunch of characters and have a bit of a think.

The drain test is the same for sorcery and conjuring, so shamen use charisma, in part, to resist summoning drain. However, since shamen can now bind spirits, linked charisma actually does make a significant difference. Having a large stable of spirits on call is very valuable--and now, oddly, is more the domain of the shaman, who used to have no stable, than the hermetic.

Cerebral Booster works for hermetics
Tailored Pheromones dont for shamans

thats the balance

Also note that you can just pick a second drain stat from your mental attributes. If you want to resist drain with Willpower and Intuition you can just do that. It's right in the rules on page 169. It's not a house rule or anything. Resisting drain with charisma is just an example.

-Frank