I'm wondering if there is a formula for figuring out the build point costs for the metatypes. If there is, then I can simply modify them to make up the metahuman variants and know that the point values will remain appropriate. If not, can someone come up with something that comes close?

Jay

Why not just add +5 (or even +10) to the base BP cost of each Race?

As far as I can see, there is no 'formula' involved (but then again I'm not really an advanced math wiz).

The formula is:

Take the number of people who played that metatype, as a percentage of people who played metahumans in SR3, now round up to the nearest 5%, multiply by 100 and that's how many Build Points it costs in SR4 (note: the total is 115% because you rounded up four times, Orks were actually only 16% of the total, for example).

I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. The preponderance of people played Elves and Trolls in SR3 even in the face of their "we'll pay you points if you play a dwarf, pretty please play a dwarf" program. Trolls because they are the most extreme on the strength and melee thing, and elves because you could really cheese out the charisma and they didn't have any drawbacks. Orks were the least played because Intelligence was the stat (so they were pretty inferior), and anyway if you wanted to play a big tusker you'd play a Troll.

So in SR4 they've set up some government subsidies to get people to play Orks and I imagine they'll work pretty well. I have no idea why the game designers think that people should play the different metatypes with equal frequency, there's obviously some basic postulate that they have that I don't. I'm happy if all choices are game mechanically viable, and I'm unhappy if doing what I want to do is game mechanically inferior. By incentivizing unpopular choices, they are essentially making peoples' natural inclinations into objectively poor choices, and I can't see how that can lead to anything but bitterness and resentment.

The fact is that in SR4 getting stat modifiers is good. A penalty reduces your maximum only, but a bonus increases both your maximum and the starting value. So if you could get a bonus to half the stats at random and a penalty to the other half that would be good. It would be so good in fact, that it would usually be a good deal even if you intended to play a character that made heavy use of all of the stats that were penalized (since starting with a four in four stats is perfectly acceptable in light of the SR4 stat paradigm). So the best races in terms of stat arrays are Troll, Ork, Dwarf, Elf - in that order. The best ability sets are Troll and then Dwarf (Orks and Elves are the same with virtually no ability set),

So yeah, Orks are the master race. Followed by Dwarves.

If you wanted to be fair, you'd make all the metahumans (except possibly Trolls) cost the same amount. Probably about 25 points.

Now as to Metahuman Variants, you have to be more specific. In SR2, the variants almost without exception simply moved a stat point from one stat to another. That should logically be free - excpet that presumably you're only going to take a metahuman variant if you like the stat array better, so it should cost slightly less than buying a stat point - probably about 5 points. The SR3 variants often simply gave you a stat point for no reason (especially the Dwarf variants), and in that case you're looking at paying 30 points. 10 for the extra attribute point that you are getting, and 20 for the enhanced stat maximum you are buying in an attribute of your choosing.

Of course, the Ork variants usually have less intense stats (except for Oni), so the change from Ork to Ogre or Ork to Hobgoblin could be free.

-Frank

If no one in your game plays orcs.. I feel sorry for you. Orc sammy/adept are tha shiznit They can be the brick house and still fast, and have good str with very few points and charisma? From a munchy standpoint why bother? your playing an orc after all... But yes dwarfs are gods perfect creatures in SR3, and the only time they are ever played is as a mage, and then all people want to play a gnome instead. But then there was that one time our entire group played the all dwarf team and slaughtered.. well everything, but we don't speak of that any longer

In 4th edition the point cost is balanced by the number of bonuses you get net. So elves and trolls, get +3 attributes net and cost 30 BP. Hope that helps. And hope i am correct, If it would not destroy it i would superglue the book to the back of my forearm...

Remember that you lose the +1 edge you get for being human, so you effectively pay 10 points 'invisible points' for choosing on the the meta races.

So far, I'm worried about elves and orcs. Elves because Agility is linked to a lot of important skills, add the fact that an elf with exceptional agility has a moditifed stat max of 12 (compared to the modified stat max of 9 for normal folks), same thing with Cha, in that it's linked to most of the social skills which can also be important. Once I'm done reading the rules, I'll run some numbers and see how it works out, but a base of 12 dice on any agl linked skill sounds pretty bad.

As body and strength don't have as many linked skills, they are esentilally less useful. As the stat differences (in bonuses) between orcs and trolls are not that different and orcs are cheaper, they might be exploitable as well.

people not play orks in your games??? ookay I don't get elves or trolls in mine... got a troll once and an elf once

We had a lot of ork chars in our games. Not only meele adepts or sammies, but also faces, rigger and tech-guys. Orks are a rapidly growing part of metahuman society after all. And they don't get any intelligence malus in our games (don't know if it's official rule or house rule) and cost you 0 points (that's a hous rule). We had some elven chars, but not as much as orks. Orks are cool.

Trolls had never been played in the last years. And only a handful dwarfs. The last i remember is my lazy dwarf alligator shaman and that's probably two years back since i played him the last time.

I will play ork in your game, no probs

You're welcome But i doubt you're living in northern germany...

Orks rule. Especially after Orxploitation and the "Ork Poser" Quality.

We had never been satisfied with intelligence penalties to any race so we dropped them. Same with the bad karma flaw for metas btw.

An ork is not only his stats, it's also a character who will face a lot of prejudices, at least in our games. They're tough, they're strong and you get them for free, but prejudices come along as well.

We never had a runner team where more then 1/3 of the chars had been orks. Most players played humands despite the points advantage of orks. Surprise surprise.

Here are some preliminary numbers I have come up with for Meta-Human costs (posted in another thread.) I am still attempting to narrow it down:

Over the years I saw probably 30 players come and go and not a single person ever played an ork.

the #1 reason i never played one is because they only live into their 30s. wheres the fun in someone having thier peak years in their teens?

And it's just their average lifespan. Humans had an average lifespan of 55 years, iirc to SR3. Keeping in mind that western european humans are certainly in their late 70's when they die, there are other regions of the world where humans die in their early 30's.

Same goes with Orks, ata least in my 6th World.

I think some of the confusion about ork lifespans comes from "Never Trust an Elf", where there was this over-the-top spiel about a prominent Ork who Goblinized shortly after the Awakening looking younger than his daughter (who had aged to an old crone by then). *shudders* That was bad.

I'd like to think the shorter lifespans are due to the socio-economic status of Orks worldwide, along with higher infant mortality rates (more children = more deaths).

I'd like to think that the whole thing with Orks getting old quick is because of Methuselah Syndrome. It's a disease state that apparently afflicts some Orks and makes them age super fast.

According to Shadows of Asia, the head of Yamatetsu (now Evo) got it and the corporation launched a moon shot style program to find a cure. So it's entirely plausible that by 2070 there is a cure fr Orks getting old at young ages.

And in any case, not all Orks get Methuselah Syndrome, so if you want your character to live to be 90+, that's entirely reasonable. Of course, only a goblinized Ork could be 90+, but Methuselah Syndrome apparently happens to some goblinized folks too.

-Frank

The Yamatetsu CEO is the first ork who suffers Methusalem Syndrome i hear of. most players i know view orks as a race with a lifespan of 35, even if those orks live in very good conditions. Imo that's not the case, as i tried to explain some posts before. The majority of orks will live farily healthy by the age of 55 like a humna would (assuming both are living in a rich western european city). An ork living in a slum in India is likely to die with 35, as will a human.

I recall a number of the source books having throw away comments like this from the Sprawl Survival Guide:

"That drinking age limit is an affront to orks and trolls. By the time I'm legal to drink and get in a club, I'll be middle-aged and halfway dead. Fraggin' moralists."

It's rather consistent IME, elves have longer life spans than humans. Orcs and Trolls have shorter ones.

However I don't imagine that it would in practical terms affect the typical campaign. It would have an impact on a group that started in 2050 and is now considering continuing the campaign into 2070.

Busting out the old saw I always do when this topic comes up:

You will find that the Shadowrun books are remarkably inconsistent about telling you how long every race lives, at least in any concrete and factual way. They live as long as you, as GM, think they should.

Me, I think the seemingly usual player opinion who say Orks only live to be 35 to be patently ridiculous. Not just because of the fact that the same chart said Humans lived to be 55, on average, indicating that the numbers weren't 'you die of old age here'. Orks wouldn't be able to function in society worth anything, because if 35 was crotchety old man age, Orks would be getting sexually active between 6-10 years old.

thats the funny thing about avarages. have some that live to they are 60 or so and then a higher number that only live until they are 40 or so and suddenly the avarage is closer to the 40 then the 60

so i say that one should take the avarage age to read the peak age. after that your body is going down hill even tho you may live until your touble that value.

allso, a lower avarage age seem to point towards a faster developing and more active race. combo that with a higher chance of getting twins or more and you have a race that can grow rapidly even tho they dont live long.

basicly the orcs are buildt for harder lifes then elfs and humans.

they kinda remind of of those insects that have exactly 24 hours to go from larva to insect and then mate. their biological clock is just faster.

so lets say that 1 human year equals 2 orc years. this means that a orc kid thats 6 years going by the human calendar, is in fact 12 years.

kinda like how you calculate the age of a dog in a way...

i must say that i have a bigger problem with elfs then i have with orc ages. the thing about elfs is that they seems to have this ability to never age past their prime. kinda like having a natural imunity to cancer or something.

the orcs on the other hand are just accelerated humans, with higher cellular division leading to a easyer time building up body tissues. problem is that this higher growth rate leads to them having less of a time to train their minds before their bodys hit the point of no return. but i would expect that a orc that have a teaching plan that takes into account all this should be able to match most humans.

basicly orcs live a life on fast forward compared to humans. yet they have to deal with a system of laws buildt for human speeds.