I finished this baby on Sunday night - exactly 2 weeks from cover-to-cover for a 360 page book. I had lots of thoughts, ideas, opinions, etc. as I was reading and feel the need to express them. It's been a busy 2 weeks and I didn't take notes or anything, so I'm sure I will miss stuff that I thought of - now lost to the aether of my brain. Everything is IMHO and YMMV of course, and this is all from reading - it's not clear when my group will be to the point where they will be ready to actually play.
- First, I think Rob and Adam and Co should be very proud of this work. It's a bold new version of the game, not a simple revision like the previous releases. They did a great job of cleaning and tightening the rules system and updating the environment based on current technical/social changes.
- The internal self-references and other pieces of humor were amusing. I read a lot of WotC D&D books and they tend to lose the fact that it's a game in their efforts to be professional. It's a nice change for me. My biggest laugh: the name of the runner in the 'chunky salsa' example.
- The RFID stuff is an interesting addition. I have a friend who works for a big player in that field and they are betting on the whole world going RFID sooner rather than later.
- AR is huge. It has the potential to be a whole new dimension to the game, a huge benefit if it can be pulled off. I'm concerned about running it successfully however. Keeping track of that extra layer of reality may be too much to handle. I am really hoping that the upcoming published adventures do a good job of describing the AR impacts of the environment.
- I haven't run a regular SR game since the later days of SR2 and I always ran fast and loose with SINs, ID, etc. The full integration of the SIN, false ID, etc. rules into SR4 seems to force a lot more tracking of what the organizations know about the PCs and really force the PCs to cover their tracks and keep their IDs cycling. It may be that most groups are already doing this (there was always quite a bit of discussion of these sorts of things on ShadowRN-L) and it is just new to me - but it will change the game dynamics at my table.
- The new Edge rules demand the use of tokens like Deadlands chips/Savage Worlds bennies. I will definitely be doing something like: Each player will provide a set of unique tokens equal to their Edge (ideally something that fits the character), and hand them to me when they spend Edge. I will then use my pile to award the tokens back to the players as they do cool stuff - keeping the game flowing, awarding good rp, and adding a level of flavor.
- Although the internal consistency of mechanics has been greatly improved, there is still some differences that appear quite significant, and I'm interested in hearing if these were deliberate design decisions based on playtest, etc. Here's my point:
- The base mechanic is Atribute+Skill dice. This basic formula is modified in (I think) 4 different ways depending on circumstance: 1) Combat uses the 'rating' (DV) of the weapon as a sort of threshold that is then resisted. 2) Magic uses the 'rating' (force) of the spell as a cap on the number of gross hits. 3) Hacking replaces the Atribute with the rating of the program. 4) Some equipment adds it's rating to the dice pool.
- The combat thing may be stretching, but the other 3 look like they could have been handled using an identical mechanic - any of the ones used could work as well for all if applied consistently. Not having actually played yet, I'd be interested to see it work the way it was designed and wonder which of the solutions may be 'better' than the others.
- The biggest thing I was hoping to get out of this new version was speedier combat resolution. The 'only count 5s' mechanic should go a huge way towards this goal. I think it will have to wait for actual play before I can tell how quickly it will run.
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts on the book - overall I think it's a fantastic piece of work and I hope my criticisms are taken as constructive.
Full Version: Buck's Thoughts on SR4
| QUOTE (Buckalew) |
| - I haven't run a regular SR game since the later days of SR2 and I always ran fast and loose with SINs, ID, etc. The full integration of the SIN, false ID, etc. rules into SR4 seems to force a lot more tracking of what the organizations know about the PCs and really force the PCs to cover their tracks and keep their IDs cycling. It may be that most groups are already doing this (there was always quite a bit of discussion of these sorts of things on ShadowRN-L) and it is just new to me - but it will change the game dynamics at my table. |
It is my opinion that using Fake SINs in SR4 is easier than ever, mostly because they are cheap. 6,000 nuyen for one Fake ID? I'll take ten! The mechanics are just an opposed test between the ID reader (or possibly a Perception test on the part of the analyzer) and the rating of the Fake ID. Of course, if you want to use the SSG rules, they can pretty much transplant over to SR4 directly (with some mechanics adjustments), but in a standard game, the Fake ID thing is just another dice roll that can get your PCs in trouble, like Stealth Skill Group or Vehicle skills.
Looking over the Fake SIN rules i forsee a high fake SIN turn-over if the GM strictly enforces a SIN check on all purchases, and weapon license checks (if the PCs take advantage of cheap fake conceal/carry licenses). Lots of turn over plus a lot of "cheeze it!" as the PC bolts before LS shows up.
Well, let's just say that Fake SINs are no more as safe as they were in SR3... you get what you pay for, obviously.
don't forget to add in the cost of dummy Commlink and OS in your fake SIN/ID costs
| QUOTE (Buckalew) |
| - The new Edge rules demand the use of tokens like Deadlands chips/Savage Worlds bennies. I will definitely be doing something like: Each player will provide a set of unique tokens equal to their Edge (ideally something that fits the character), and hand them to me when they spend Edge. I will then use my pile to award the tokens back to the players as they do cool stuff - keeping the game flowing, awarding good rp, and adding a level of flavor. |
Actually, there's a far easier way: special colored dice. That way, you can easily see when Edge dice come up 6's (for exploding 6's). And, spend a point of Edge? Take one die out and put it back in the bag.
According to Bull at the GenCon demo, if you spend Edge then all dice in the test get the Rule of 6. Don't have my book handy so I'm not sure if that was an artifact of playtesting in his mind.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| According to Bull at the GenCon demo, if you spend Edge then all dice in the test get the Rule of 6. Don't have my book handy so I'm not sure if that was an artifact of playtesting in his mind. |
If you spend the Edge before the initial roll, yes. If you choose to use Edge after the initial roll only the Edge dice can explode. So unless you are rolling the Edge dice into the area where you've left the dice from the initial roll in place there shouldn't be a need for a different colour.
| QUOTE (Kesh) |
| Actually, there's a far easier way: special colored dice. That way, you can easily see when Edge dice come up 6's (for exploding 6's). And, spend a point of Edge? Take one die out and put it back in the bag. |
The number of Edge dice rolled is not reduced by 'spending' Edge (unless you're using a variant listed in a sidebar).
For me, the value of the tokens is not so much to help the players track their Edge, but the GM. Replenishing Edge is at the discretion of the GM, whenever the player does something cool. The pile of spent Edge reminds the GM that they need to watch for things that will replenish. A feather for the raven shaman, a shell casing for the sammie, etc. tells the GM which players to track. The physical act of tossing the token back to the player after something cool is a visual pat on the back that would otherwise have to wait until karma awards at the end of the run.
| QUOTE |
| - The biggest thing I was hoping to get out of this new version was speedier combat resolution. The 'only count 5s' mechanic should go a huge way towards this goal. I think it will have to wait for actual play before I can tell how quickly it will run. |
I am also pretty much leaving my final judgement on the table unitl after I have actually played a few sessions of the game. The thing is this, I am not exactly sure that the game will go any faster or slower than before, but the new mechanic is very two demensional and boring.
You are dealing with larger pools here. This is something they had to do since you have to have a robust die pool to apply modifiers to the pool itself instead of the TN. The only difference I see here is that instead of being able to calculate a one to two digit number in you head, you have the opportunity of adding or subtracting dice from a pool. Basically a phisical track of the difficulty. No real big deal here in time or ease. At least to me. Looking for sixes and re-rolling vs. looking for fives is also not that big of a deal. Since most of the times you are either looking for 4's or 6's anyways. In most cases rolling the same amount if not less dice.
The main difference is that you have the GM setting the TN and the player deciding how many dice to roll. Of course I am reffering to die pools here. Here we had a game system where the outcome of combat did not simply rely on how much Karma/XP your character had, how well you munchkined the rules at character creation or if you simply get lucky since you always have a 5% chance to hit. This game was different. It gave you a mechanic to decide where your characters focus was going to be in that round of combat. How important was it to get off that one shot to make or break it all? How good was your opponent in close combat and how many turns will you be able to hold him off with the combat pool you have left? Those were calls you could make within the game that put you in the drivers seat of the combat. Add on top of this that you can no longer score a hit on your opponent when defending, makes the combat system seem lifeless compared to the way it was. All in the name of dumbing down the game a little for simplicities sake. Now the game is simply "I walk up. I attack. You take damage. Now it is your turn to hit me." I might as well play d20 for the difference it makes.
I will agree that the game is a little quicker, not that much, but a little. But I think that it was at the expense of a lot of what made Shadowrun so unique and exciting. Its still a good system and what they added to the game setting and threats sections are enough for me to stick with the product, but I really think that they dropped the ball in trying to simplify the game.
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