ok. I'm wondering. what skills do most people deem necessary, nay VITAL to the continued existance of a character?

i'm not talking combat skills. you can get by quite happily without those. (infact for my group, it's a general rule of thumb that if you had to fie off a round, then the run could have gone better.)

I'm not talking about skills for a particular type of character. sure, it's a given that the hacker will have hacky type skills, the sams will have shooty type skills, and riggers will have drivy type skills.

i'm talking about skills that every character should have to a greater or lesser extent, regardless of what they actually do for a living.

i was gonna start off by recommending dodge. But then i realised that i'd already disqualified it, on the grounds that this isn't about combat. Frankly, though i'm gonna say that anyone who doesn't have a few points in dodge is probably not going to survive the first combat they run into... so i'm giving it a "must have" point. i know the general idea is to avoid combat, but sometime combat just happens.


ergo, i'm going to nominate "perception". Frankly in any given situation, it just pays to be that little bit more aware of whats going on around you. I know there was much to be said for "zen and the art of shadowrunning", but personally, i like to have as many of the facts as possible, at my disposal.

Any more takers?

(FYI, i'm pre-generating a bunch of characters for a pickup "this is Shadowrun 4, whadda-ya-think" game, and i'm all out of character ideas)

Actually, if you have Gymnastics and Unarmed Combat, there's no need to ever have a Dodge Skill. There is literally never a time in your life when your Dodge skill is going to be added to your defense pool.

The only skill that really everyone needs to have is Perception, although life without Infiltration and Ettiquette is both short and lame.

-Frank

I agree on perception and I am going to have to give ettiquette a vote too. The only other one I would keep in mind is negotiation. A lot of people really don't think about that. I would find it crucial to any Shadowrunner since the first thing you do on most runs is negotiate the deal. A must for Runners IMHO.

'Runner Rule #5 : Unless you are THE whiz negotiator on the team, keep your $#%* mouth shut when meeting Mr. Johnson.

'Runner Corollary #54 : If keeping your mouth shut during a meet is beyond your capabilities, or simply not enough to keep you from screwing up the meet then don't show up at all.


That said sometimes a little social skill is an ok emergency tool, but i'd go with Con instead. If social interaction isn't your primary expertise then when you are pressed into it you are likely in a Fast Talking situation.

As a GM I frown upon characters with no social skill whatsoever. Its not so much like it is really needed. ( The character with the best negotiation should do the talking ) But unless the character's background completely warrant it they have to have some ettiquette skill. Furthermore most characters specialize it so they'll be decent at a particular type of ettiquette. It works out well as it gives almost every player a chance to stretch their social muscle.

Booklord: you have clearly never worked anywhere, gone to school anywhere, or interacted with any meaningful number of people. I'm very close to starting to demand justification any time I see a point of Etiquette on a character sheet.

Edit since tone doesn't carry through text: the first half was in jest, the second half partly so.

~J

It's an old argument.

The other side of the fence: people can get along pretty well without social skills.

But you'd better be pretty good (skilled, rich or otherwise valuable) for people to overlook your lack of social graces.

-Siege

It's up to the GM to make social skills as important as combat skills. A group that spends all its time slaughtering gangers won't need social skills any more than a party of socialites and dilletantes need combat skills. IMO, SR4 does not make it particularly difficult to accomplish whatever balance you might desire, although there is certainly a bias toward combat (it's a rough-and-tumble setting).

You can use it for full defense ... same use as dodge.

SYL

Dodge is better in close combat:

CC full defense is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge or
Reaction + Dodge + CC skill

Gymnastic Dodge is just
Reaction + Gymnastics

You can probably cover almost all circumstances with full parry and gymnastic dodge, though, having someone shooting at you and someone trying to hit you in the same pass seems a low occurance combination.

Interesting... Gymnastics is nearly identical to Dodge in combat, yet also provides a benefit to jumping, as well as several other cat burgular-type feats. Definitely a worthy alternative.

Am I the only one who thinks the books is saying you add the gymnastics dice *to* your reaction + dodge dice? Full defense automatically uses dodge+reaction, the book merely says you can add your gymnastics dice, right? Otherwise, this makes no sense, because why take dodge?

OSUMacbeth

That's a very good question - combining Dodge + Gymnastics + etc. is just obscene and I wouldn't subscribe to it.

Someone else suggested that Gymnastics has a more limited application whereas Dodge applies more generally.

I think. Maybe?

-Siege

Yes, it is obscene....for all of *one* action, after which you're a sitting duck while all the npcs take turns aiming + long bursting you while you realize you just lost your next turn. Seriously, if you dodge, you're boned unless your team can cover your lapse. I view dodge as strictly a last-ditch defense to be used when you may very well die if you fail. My roomate and I recently took on a team of renraku red samurai who learned the hard way that when you dodge, you're safer for an attack or two, but in no time you're almost certainly in even worse trouble. Considering that it costs you an entire action of being a sitting duck, I in no way think that dodge+reaction+gymnastics would be overpowered. Add that to the fact that you get worse at dodging for each attack you dodge, and, well...it's not pretty. Let's just say that.

EDIT: And then there's wide bursts, and the wonder of dual-wielding pistols, doubling the rate at which characters lose dice to dodge with.

OSUMacbeth

S'why you dodge for cover.

As a rule, bullets will always move faster than you do.

-Siege

Actually that p151 quote makes it pretty clear. You're adding your gymnastics dice to the dice pool created by rolling whatever it was you needed to roll normally.

OSUMacbeth

Here's the skinny:

In Ranged Combat you roll your Reaction for Defense.
In Close Combat you roll your Reaction and your Dodge or your Unarmed Combat (whichever is higher) for Defense.

Now, this means that if you plan to spend most of your time shooting people in combat, unarmed combat and dodge are pretty much the same. The difference is only seen when go Full Defense, where you have three options:

* Add Unarmed Combat to your defense rolls in melee.
* Add Dodge to your Defense rolls in melee and ranged combat.
* Add Gymnastics to your Defense rolls in melee and ranged combat.

So let's say that you're in the situation where you have a Dodge skill of 6 and a Reaction of 5:

At Range you roll 5 dice.
In melee you roll 11 dice.

When on Full Defense:
At Range you roll 11 dice.
In melee you roll 17 dice.

Now, let's look at this situation when you have a Gymnastics of 6 and an Unarmed Combat of 4:

At Range you roll 5 dice.
In melee you roll 9 dice.

And at Full Defense:

At Range you roll 11 dice.
In melee you roll 15 dice.

---

So it isn't that Dodge doesn't do anything that Gymnastics doesn't do - it's that unless you raise your Dodge past 4 you literally can't see anything that it does over just having Gymnastics and Unarmed Combat.

So if you don't take Dodge as one of the one or two skills that you start play with above 4, there's really no reason to have it at all. You have a gymnastics skill, so if you were going to buy Dodge up you'd just buy Unarmed Combat instead. The only thing that having a dodge skill o 1-4 does is add to your defense rolls in melee - but it does so instead of unarmed combat, and unarmed combat has other uses.

-Frank

Also, don't forget to specialize in dodge (ranged) for only 2BP. That give you a good +2 dices against range attack and it make your dodge skill remain at the level you just put it. That give you some extra dice against ranged attack when your in complete defense and allow you to dodge more efficiently for a longer period...

But if you're not planning on buying Unarmed Combat (e.g., non-combat magician, rigger, or hacker), Dodge has a (slight) edge over Gymnastics, even if it isn't as versatile.

Dodge allows Specialisation on Ranged Combat - thats usually 2 Dice more for 2 Karma.

On Full Defense the books says:

Full Dodge: "...may be
used against both ranged and melee attacks."

Full Parry: "...may not be used against
ranged attacks."

Gymnastics Dodge: "...against
either ranged or melee attacks."

Does this mean that you have to choose one type of attacks to dodge with Gymnastics Dodge?

Although a bit strange, this would make Full Dodge worthwhile in situations where you are both being shot at and beaten at the same time...

In all other situations I agree that the Dodge skill seems redundant if you have both Unarmed Combat and Gymnastics.

Apathy, I don't think your ratings line up with the descriptions in SR4.

Here's the description of Rating 0: The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence, it is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average.

Take a look at the writeup on pages 108-109. The normal man on the street is listed as having most social skills at 0. The example for Rating 3 social skills is listed as "Professional sales representative, social dilettante, face, Mr. Johnson."

Edit: oops, it submit too soon. Anyway, a skill rating of 3 is an average profesional based around those skills, not the normal person who uses those skills occasionaly.

Right. So far the list is ooking like this.

Everyone should have either unarmed + Gymnastics, or Dodge, to keep ones hoop out of a sling.

Everyone should have some level of social skills. Etiquette, negotiation, con, whatever. we're not talking astronomical levels here, just enough to avoid making an arse of ones self.

Some / most people should also have some level of firstaid, heal, or "stick internl organs in hole in right order" skill.

A level or two of computer, hardware, infiltrate. (these however are mostly optional)

A couple of points in "area knowledge : seattle", "Lone star security procedures" "not getting geeked in a gang war", "roleplaying games of teh 20th century", "pac-manhatten (seattle version", or other "know your way arround" skills.

ones that have been rejected are:

Beer, and where to find it.
Mr paul stephens, of apt 32, 8th and main (why you'd need this as a knowledge skill is frankly beyond me)
Corporate politics
desert wars : the early years.
The complete scripts for "the love boat:Tng"
Karl Kombatmage's 100 greatest one liners.
neil the ork barbarian's 100 great fasion tips.
chunky soup : Fork or spoon.

Gymnastics doesn't let you specialize in ranged defense like Dodge does, but it does help you out with jumping and falling. So, it's a trade-off.

The references to Full Dodge in the melee combat section could be clarified; you really have to flip back to p151 to see what they really mean regarding Full Dodge options.

Just thought I'd throw a comment into the dodging debate.

I can see the pros and cons of using either Dodge or Gymnastics, which I think is fine...

However, as this topic came up, I went back and re-read the dodging rules and realized something.

Suddenly extra initiative passes from 'ware or magic seem much more appealing. At first glance, I thought having better reflexes were not as big as a deal in this edition, but that might not be true.
If you really wire your character, you can declare a full dodge to avoid any attack that comes your way in that first pass. Now most mooks you fight won't have many initiative passes....probably just the first.
So after you hyper-dodge the attacks, you can spend the rest of your passes kicking the drek out of them.

Very matrix style.....I like it.

*wonders away to make that Magic 6 adept with Improved Reflexes 3 and Combat Sense 2*

Mmmmmm...tasty.

-Ravennus

The difference between Charisma and Intelligence (or Logic/Intuition) is a fine one.

Just because you lack any redeeming social grace doesn't mean you're stupid enough to walk up to the Oyabun, slap him on the back and ask to see naked photos of his daughter.

Of course, you might start speaking slowly and loudly if the Oyabun doesn't acknowledge you...

-Siege

Considering that Boxes healed are Hits-2 (the Treshold thing), I'd rather go for more dice with First Aid (Combat Wounds) to get net Hits at all.

Assuming Logic(3) + First-Aid(3) + Medkit(6) and 1 point of Edge to reroll non-hits, you'll typically roll 20 dice total (12 the first time around, another 8 on the re-roll). That'll give you 6-7 hits. After subtracting the threshold, you'll have 4-5 hits remaining, of which only 3 can be applied towards healing boxes; those 2 extra hits are moot - you can't use them.

Assuming the same stats (but using the Medkit alone), you'll typically roll 15 dice (9+6). That'll give you 5 hits. After threshold subtraction, that gives you 3 healed boxes. If you had any extra hits, they'll apply just as well (at least the first 3 will).

IMHO, it's a even bet - you're most likely to get the same number of healed boxes either way. I'd rather save the build points for something else and buy the skill after chargen. Alternately, if my char has skillwires, I could pop for a First-Aid(3) 'soft for 9K. That's slightly less than 2BP worth of gear vs. 12BP of skills (but then I couldn't use Edge on the test).

[edit]
But then again, in the first example, if you'd made your max hits without Edge, you wouldn't pay for it (and therefore wouldn't have rolled any 'wasted' hits). Meanwhile, using the Medkit alone would have allowed you to continue paying Edge until you'd reached your hit maximum or ran out of Edge (whichever came first).

Returning to the original question, I'd like to nominate Palming as a gotta-have skill. Since concealing weapons on one's person now is an opposed test, rather than declaring a target number for those observing, being unable to hide one's weapons is going to be a rather dangerous thing.

Defaulting to Palming and thus rolling Agility+1, it's very possible Joe Average on the street will have the Perception + Intuition (is that the right attribute) to notice that light pistol under your clothes. In turn, it becomes quite certain that someone actually watching for sidearms will notice them.

(Meanwhile, I can envision my players asking each other, "Uhm, can you hide this gun on me? You're more skillful than I am.")

Quite frankly, it makes a great deal of sense.

It beats the hell out of asking the sec guard if he can see your gun...

-Siege