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Aubri
To start with, I'm not a SR player. I cut my teeth on D&D and I'm reasonably familiar with White Wolf's system. I picked up an old copy of SR3 and read through it because I like the setting and I was curious about the system. I generated a sample character to see how it all works. To my shame, I didn't even bother to read the Magic chapter--I felt it was more important to get a grip on the game before adding the extra complexity of magic. I'm given to understand this may have been a wise choice, but whatever.

So. I've heard a lot about what's bad in SR4. I tend to agree that the damage system, dice pools, and the skill system gave SR a lot of its distinctiveness and an interesting take of simulating reality. That said, it was (and, I assume, still is) a very crunchy system. This is not something I mind per se, but... well, you know what I mean. Three or four dice rolls per attack? Yeesh... if nothing else, d20 has the advantage of simplicity in that arena.
But I digress! What I'd really like to know is... should I pick up SR4, or stick with SR3? Keep in mind that I'm not fanatically attached to anything about SR3; I'm asking on a purely qualitative basis. "It's always been that way" doesn't fly for me.

I suppose what I'm really looking for is peoples' complete reactions to the changes. What do you think is particularly good, what's particularly bad, and in total does it represent a positive or negative step?

For example, to show the kind of questions I'd like to see addressed, I understand that the condition monitor has changed and people no longer have a fixed 10-step damage track. Besides nostalgic complaints, how does this affect the game? Does it create any balance issues? Is it "more fun" or "less fun"--is it a "good thing"?

(Aethetic arguments are fine, mind--it's fine to say the removal of counterattacks in melee combat does make it more "bland" and, well, D&D-like. I rather liked the idea that a powerful combatant can overpower a weaker one, and it makes up for the seeming weakness and short range of melee weapons. OTOH, a good aesthetic decision was the AR system; I feel that anything that makes a decker--sorry, hacker--more involved in the real world is a good thing.)

I realize this all may be asking a lot, but I've yet to see a board where people are loathe to rant. I only request that venom and vitriol be backed up by fact! That reminds me--I'd prefer not to get into any running debates. If you disagree with someone else's points, just write your own essay and touch on the same point. Thanks!
Gort
To be honest, having not gotten a hold of the actual rules and run a game, it's very hard to say which is better.
FrankTrollman
From the standpoint of someone new to the system, SR4 is the way to go. The static target numbers and Attribute + Skill mechanics are going to be very familiar to someone with even a passing familiarity with Vampire: the Requiem. In fact, a standard die in SR4 has exactly the same average hits as a White Wolf die does (barring White Wolf's occassional brain farts like 9-again axes or negative 1s for Nosferatu). So you should have a "feel" for the game already, dice pool modiifers mean exactly what a veteran vampire player intuitively feels that they should.

That being said, the mechanics are smoother than they are in White Wolf. The Dice Pool Modifiers and Threshholds system is used pretty much throughout the game, and a gun shot does damage in the same way as a hand grenade. None of the White Wolf crap where firearms have one set of rules and explosives have another and electricity has another and so on and so forth for just about every style of combat you can think of.

So I would encourage playing SR4 over SR3 and over White Wolf. In fact, the mechanics of Shadowrun are so much smoother that I would encourage people who wanted to play Vampire to simply convert their characters in SR4 and play with those rules instead.

-Frank
blakkie
I don't think they went nearly far enough in cleaning up the core of combat. But it is an improvement, and with D&D to compare it to it shouldn't be that onerrous. Also you'll find yourself a bit more at home with some of the action options such as delaying and so on.

Did you ever try to do anything with the offical vehicles rules? Because if you had you'll be glad to hear they were ditched.

As to how things work when the rubber meets the road......Unfortunately our group hasn't had an opportunity to fire up with the new rules yet as we are in the middle of an extended Black Company adventure (mini-campaign). But we are going to actually try play in a subset of the full group outside the regular gaming night in the near future.

It looks like an improvement, but until we get rolling it is hard to say definitively.

P.S. By "crunchy" i think you mean a multi-step mass of rules? Ya, this is less crunchy.
mmu1
Hmm... As far as specifics go:

I don't like the new damage system. I think having both armor and body perform the same function (add more dice) makes no sense - it leads to situations like an average human in a kevlar vest being not much better off than a big tough guy in a t-shirt. (made even worse by things like armor-piercing rounds)

Another thing that really bothers me about how damage is handled is that the attack/dodge system favors the attacker to an extreme degree, and in a fight - much like in systems that use hitpoints - things usally don't end up coming down to whether you take damage or not, but how much damage you take from the attack.
If you want to dodge semi-effectively, you need to give up your entire next action... Since it only takes a simple action (effectively, half an action) to attack, this is pretty clearly a sucker's bet.

I hate the new called shot mechanics - because they reveal no understanding of simple mathematics. Taking certain kinds of called shots simply translates into massive amounts of free damage. Ditto for most special types of ammunition - they're mathematically unsound, and tend to be either better in every situation, or not worth bothering with. (APDS ammo, for example, is harder to get than explosive rounds, but actually worse at defeating armor)


Also, the skill system itself is a mess. It breaks down badly if you use large numbers of dice (and SR4 uses huge amounts of dice - in my opinion, absurdly so, for specialists who are good at what they do), because it lets people ignore certain modifiers that should make things impossible. Sort of like what you end up with in D&D, when a 20th level character with a 20 in a stat and 23 ranks in a skill makes a check (except in SR4, you don't need to wait to have a high-level character to do that...) which I happen to think is OK in epic fantasy, but a problem in gritty cyberpunk. To combat this, the designers have put extremely restrictive caps on abilities and skills - but that does little to fix the underlying problem, and only leaves characters with little room to grow.


If you're looking into SR purely for the sake of the setting, you might be quite happy with SR4. On the other hand, if you're looking to try both a different setting and a system that has a feel that matches the setting and is different from anything else out there, go with SR3. (warts and all)
Lebo77
QUOTE (mmu1)


If you're looking into SR purely for the sake of the setting, you might be quite happy with SR4. On the other hand, if you're looking to try both a different setting and a system that has a feel that matches the setting and is different from anything else out there, go with SR3. (warts and all)

Warts? How about huge pus-filled Boils!


The statistics of SR3 are entirely messed up. Changing your TN from a 5 to 6 is a huge blow, but 6 to 7 makes no diffrence. The pool mechanics slow things down to a crawl. I have had 6 seconds of game time take six hours to play. Plus, the matrix system was so slow and seperated the decker from the party so badly that my players had a shoot on sight policy for PC deckers. (Those decks sell for a lot of money!)

SR4 handles most of these problems. Sure, you have "naked Dwarf" problems (a dwarf with a high body is as tough as a normal guy in a bullet-proof vest) but given the high armor values and relitively limited body attribute range, this is unlikly to happen. (max body for a PC is 10 (no cyber), and that's for a Tough Troll, while armor adds 6-8. A TOUGH un cybered human is going to have a 5, vs. average joe with body 3. The armor is going to matter a lot more then the toughness
nezumi
From what I've seen the question is simply:

Do you like more 'rules-lite', story-focused gaming?
Or do you prefer more rules intensive, but perhaps more realistic (and more tweakable) gaming?

If you hate rules, SR4 sounds like the way to go. SR3 is a lot of fun, but most of the people who say this enjoy math, calculating probabilities, etc. The story in each is probably about equal, but I suppose if you have simplier, easier to learn mechanics, it's easier to dedicate more attention to the story, even if it's at the cost of a few unusual 'glitches' and more GM modifications where the rules fail to support him.
Kyoto Kid
OK Out on a limb here.

The more commentary I rad on the many changes in SR4 make me lean back towards SR3. One of the big areas of contention for me is absolute maximums for attributes and skills.

In D&D 3 & 3.5, racial attribute/class limits were done away with. A human can quite conceivably be just as quick as an Elf or as tough as a Dwarf and all races have the ability to naturally exceed beyond a score of 18 for at least one of their primary attributes. For skills (class and cross class) you are only limited by level attained, and with racial traits, feats and skill synergies, even this limit can effectively be exceeded While in the the core rules a character tops out at level 20, in a good campaign, this would translate into a fair amount of a character's lifetime (and playing time). However, even this is not an absolute when you take into account multiclassing, prestige classes, and the Epic Level Handbook. In short, there is ample opportunity, even for a single class character to keep growing. though years and years of play

In one campaign (old A D&D - modified by the DM) I had a character who survived through nearly 5 years of actual playing time (roughly 30 years of the character's life), and still looked forward to growing.

As I mentioned in another thread, in SR4 once a character reaches the attribute and skill Maximums for their profession, there is little place to go, particularly if this character is a mundane. What is left to spend Karma on? What implants do spend your hard earned nuyen on? Some would say "branch out", but that kind of defeats the whole concept the character was based on in the beginning. What happens is either the character retires, or we get a society where everybody is a "Jack of all Trades". IMHO, It kind of takes some of the fun out of the game. My little Wiz Kid Inventor Leela desires to be better than the best of the best. But, if she sees she can only become only as good as the ex-Desert Wars demolitionist living down the street it becomes a case of "I may as well just go get a job with that controlled demolitions company I saw on the trivid".

Well, there's my recycled soy compound soap box.

If you are new to the game either direction would work. With SR3, there is no wait for supplements to come out and, if you are only going to play on a casual basis, the investment will not be as much since you will be able to find most of the books used.
Michael K
First Post here. smile.gif Ah well, there you are.
I suppose one of the biggest differences to me between the systems is the de facto power level.
In all the games I have played under 3rd Edition rules start characters were so far above opponents (as presented in the world / in pre-gen adventures) in terms of power, is was blatantly ridiculous. That is not wrong in itself, but it does create (for me anyway) certain problems in game play, starting with challenging the players to finding believable explanations and jobs for someone that good.
I have a feeling, so far unsubstantiated through actual playing, that due to the limitations of 4th Edition this will change and characters can be challenged without resorting to immortal elves, great dragons, cyberzombies or 500 Halloweeners (which would if nothing else at least slowly empty the Karma pool).

For me therefore the question comes down to: what exactly is it you want to do with the game? High-powered "super"-heroes ("super"-anti-heroes) in a reasonably dark world are probably easier under 3rd rules. More down-to-earth (or gutter) street-level play should be easier with 4th rules, given the caps and limits at CharGen.

From a purely mechanical approach I would recommend 4th, if only because the matrix and vehicle combat rules in the 3rd edition were utterly useless. Matrix could be salvaged with a second game master or a lot of time from both decker and game master (and even more patience from the remaining players) but chase and vehicle combat was ... well, just leave it out. 4 pages of strange, counter-intuitive tables that absolutely killed any idea of a high speed action chase did not leave much fun for the rigger.
Grinder
You can customize SR3 as well as SR4 by lowering or raising the BP for character generation to get the power level you want.
Catsnightmare
SR3's big problems with Rigging and Decking were addressed to a degree. Check out the alternative quick-rigging and quick-decking rules in the back of Mr. Johnsons Little Black Book.
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, it is quite simple.

You like the way WW designed their system or want to start quickly?

Go SR4.

You don't, and don't mind to invest months learning the exact mechanics for each and every aspect, then houseruling many?

Try SR3.


From a 'Fun' PoV, SR4 includes more cool stuff into its main book than SR3, even counting the base supplements.
Aubri
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
So I would encourage playing SR4 over SR3 and over White Wolf. In fact, the mechanics of Shadowrun are so much smoother that I would encourage people who wanted to play Vampire to simply convert their characters in SR4 and play with those rules instead.

Well, I don't necessarily want to use an existing system. Familiarity isn't a problem; I'm mainly interested in SR3 vs. SR4. That said, I appreciate your comments on that subject, though I'd be interested to hear it if you have any further specifics. smile.gif
Aubri
QUOTE (blakkie)
I don't think they went nearly far enough in cleaning up the core of combat. But it is an improvement, and with D&D to compare it to it shouldn't be that onerrous. Also you'll find yourself a bit more at home with some of the action options such as delaying and so on.

Did you ever try to do anything with the offical vehicles rules? Because if you had you'll be glad to hear they were ditched.
(...)
P.S. By "crunchy" i think you mean a multi-step mass of rules? Ya, this is less crunchy.

Heh, I kinda skimmed the vehicle rules too. And, excuse me, was that a shot at D&D? wink.gif

In what way is the combat core still messy?

"Crunchy" (from "number crunching") refers to a system requiring a lot of math--for example, GURPS is about as crunchy as they come, making you frequently divide values by 3 and look up big tables. Storyteller has very little crunch, with almost all rolls being a simple test against a GM-assigned TN. D&D (well, d20 in general) is somewhat crunchy, but mitigates it by being very regular in the way things work. 2nd Edition AD&D was much crunchier.
Aubri
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
You like the way WW designed their system or want to start quickly?
Go SR4.
You don't, and don't mind to invest months learning the exact mechanics for each and every aspect, then houseruling many?
Try SR3.
From a 'Fun' PoV, SR4 includes more cool stuff into its main book than SR3, even counting the base supplements.

That seems like a fair summation. I'll probably go with SR4, then, "warts and all", because I feel that the decking and rigging options are an important part of the game. I'll miss the damage system, but I can see why it is the way it is. I'm not a big fan of having to house-rule a system just to make it workable.

One more question, then: Compare with Cyber 2020? cool.gif
Taran
QUOTE (Michael K)
I have a feeling, so far unsubstantiated through actual playing, that due to the limitations of 4th Edition this will change and characters can be challenged without resorting to immortal elves, great dragons, cyberzombies or 500 Halloweeners (which would if nothing else at least slowly empty the Karma pool).

I used to believe this too, but I've since changed my mind. Thanks to the skill and attribute caps, a well-designed starting decker isn't more than 100 karma away from Fastjack, so the power level of the game is actually higher. My own belief (like yours, unsullied with mere experience) is that SR4 merely allows the creation of a different set of superbeings; an adept who rolls 9 reaction dice against attacks (Reaction 6 + Combat Sense 3, perhaps) is nigh-immune to small arms fire by the 'standard professional' with 3 Agility and 3 Firearms.
Aubri
QUOTE (mmu1)
I hate the new called shot mechanics - because they reveal no understanding of simple mathematics.

I hate called shots in general. I mean, what, you weren't trying to shoot him somewhere vulnerable before? We're abstracting combat, and that means you don't have to declare where you're aiming. An armor's protective rating is based on how much of the body it covers just as much as how well it stops an attack--or should be anyway.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Aubri)
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Sep 8 2005, 03:07 PM)
I hate the new called shot mechanics - because they reveal no understanding of simple mathematics.

I hate called shots in general. I mean, what, you weren't trying to shoot him somewhere vulnerable before?

Most firearm combat in the real world centers on hitting the damn target at all first, which generally means center of mass. Trick shooters and triggermen are the only people who tend to get fancy picking out hands, kneecaps and foreheads.
Ravennus
QUOTE (Aubri)
One more question, then: Compare with Cyber 2020? cool.gif

Hehe! Yeah! Someone brought up my other favourite cyberpunk RPG! cyber.gif

I could write an essay, but I'll just touch on one aspect that really bites my butt...


If you want to actually play a cyborg in a cyberpunk setting, choose CP2020.

It's funny though....cyborgs in CP2020 tend to unbalance gameplay (we won't even mention power armor...ugh). The main reason is that you are only dealing with other human beings. I'm sorry, skill can only make up for so much when you are dealing with a torqued off 600 pound cyberpsycho (though there are inventive ways to deal with them).

However, is Shadowrun, you have trolls, adepts, mages, and crazy deckers/hackers that can hack into all that chrome. Hey, and this is just what's available in chargen. There are Dragons out there, choombata, and they would snap you in two without batting an eye, full cyberbody or no. That's the extreme end, but my point is that in the Shadowrun setting, full conversion cyborgs would in NO way be unbalancing.

Yet, for some reason, FASA/Fanpro has a full hate on for any possibility of a player becoming full metal. Sure, in SR4 you COULD, but you were nothing more than a walking zombie made of wires and synthsteel. Sure, you could technically get a full cyberbody without becoming a cyberzombie but it was also terribly ineffective....all that metal really hurt you more than help you in SR3 (and now SR4), because you could better spend the essence on more useful and less invasive 'ware.

Even worse....in the jump to 4th Edition Shadowrun, everything got upgraded (and even cheaper, especially cyber!).
Yet, as The Jopp stated in another thread-
QUOTE
What's the stupidity with cyberlimbs in general? Basically ALL other cyberware has had a boost in tech level but for some reason cyberlimbs has not had an advancement since shadowrun 2050'ish. After twenty years of technological advancement no improvement on the essence cost of cyberlimbs or miniaturization of cyberlimb implants...


Meh... honestly, I'm waiting for the new cyberpunk supplement for D20 Modern to see how they handle it. I have no real hope, but who knows.

Either way, there is no doubt that full body conversion cyborgs are a staple in cyberpunk. Heck, check out the latest Ghost in the Shell series (first and second season) for an amazing look at an updated 21st century look into the future of cyberpunk. In that setting, the majority of the population have invasive cybernetic implants...but they do an amazing job of normalizing it and integrating the cyberware into the culture without making it silly or cheesy. They have done an incredible thing....upgrading the meat, but keeping the soul.

And that's hard to do.

-Ravennus
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Aubri)
I hate called shots in general. I mean, what, you weren't trying to shoot him somewhere vulnerable before? We're abstracting combat, and that means you don't have to declare where you're aiming. An armor's protective rating is based on how much of the body it covers just as much as how well it stops an attack--or should be anyway.


called shot in a abstract system works as long as the way it works is allso abstract.

ie, no straight armor bypass. no way. only more damage equaling harder to hit shot. and trick shots, but these should not normaly do damage outside of special effects (like say shooting someone in the leg so that they fall over, id pop a box or two on to that just for the damage done to the leg but i would not allow for the full number of hits that the should could have landed).

problem was that in SR3 people got the special purpouse rule for narcojects mixed up with the general rule, and now its become a true general rule in SR4. ouch. i can understand aiming to bypass armor with a narcoject as its effect will be the same no matter. your just trying to pierce the skin so that the drugs can take effect. bypassing armor with a normal bullet changes effect depending on what are of the body is coverd by armor and as there is no info to help this in SR its messed up.

now if we where playing CP2020 where the armor come with defined protection areas and there is a extra roll to spread the hits over the body its no problem. basicly im going to leave the bypass armor stuff out of SR4. it will most likely be one of the few house rules ill use.

but hell, the bypass armor trick is totaly gimped in SR4 if i recall the numbers straight. so who will every try to use it?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Aubri @ Sep 9 2005, 03:08 AM)
I'll miss the damage system, but I can see why it is the way it is.

You won't miss it that much - SR4 works a bit different, but not that different... it still 'feels' like SR.
morlock76
After reading up on a ton of rules and looking at house rules, I finally realize that I have undergone a change.

I very much seperated myself from SR3 ruleset and idea(set) and like the ease of SR4. I have to admit that I enjoy playing Feng Shui, too, and I think SR4 is SR3 + Feng Shui.

There are some things to be ironed out, but oh well, cant have it all, can we?

Maybe with SR4 the player base will change a bit, leaving the crunchers out a bit, as you reach hard caps very quickly.

The caps bothered me at first, but if you set the scale at the right level, they are no problem any more.

I remember from going to cons that the people playing SR were always the one looking tired, kinda like working.
I hope that is something of the past. Make SR intense, but not work.

SR4 did the step in that direction and for me it made the jump into the new millenium with that.

Next oder of the day: Get all Ghost in the Shell Seasons and collect ideas smile.gif
Pandamoanyum
QUOTE (morlock76 @ Sep 9 2005, 05:48 AM)
Next oder of the day: Get all Ghost in the Shell Seasons and collect ideas smile.gif

Good stuff IMHO. Expensive and not perfect (more a futuristic police show than a completely cyberpunk show) but good stuff. The movies and manga are much more cyberpunk--the first book spawned the movie and all the other spinoffs, while the second seems to have inspired a lot of stuff in SR4.
nezumi
QUOTE (Aubri)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 8 2005, 06:39 PM)
You like the way WW designed their system or want to start quickly?
Go SR4.
You don't, and don't mind to invest months learning the exact mechanics for each and every aspect, then houseruling many?
Try SR3.
From a 'Fun' PoV, SR4 includes more cool stuff into its main book than SR3, even counting the base supplements.

That seems like a fair summation. I'll probably go with SR4, then, "warts and all", because I feel that the decking and rigging options are an important part of the game. I'll miss the damage system, but I can see why it is the way it is. I'm not a big fan of having to house-rule a system just to make it workable.

One more question, then: Compare with Cyber 2020? cool.gif

Firstly, I'll say the first quote is NOT a fair summation.

It's like saying 'if you like a fuel efficient, classy, reasonably powered and environmentally friendly car, get a VW bug. If you want to pay $60 for a tank of gas, get a cadillac.'

SR3 has a *LOT* of neat tools and features which make it preferable to many, many players, over SR4. Yes, it's more complex to learn than SR4, but think about it, if a group of intelligent people have two systems and one is clearly more complex, yet they prefer the complex one, don't you think there might be a reason why the complex one is preferable?

As for the question about Cyberpunk 2020.... CP2020 had a great atmosphere, but it sort of required you read books not packaged in the system, where as Shadowrun is very well encapsulated. CP2020 has a simplier dice system (d10), but it's much bulkier and VERY unbalanced. I *LOVE* the cyberware and weapons list, and wish SR had one similar (although again, better balanced). As has been pointed out, you can't make a borg in SR, nor a brain in a jar. But overall, SR (either edition) is, at worst, the same speed as CP2020, more self-encapsulated, better defined and lacking only in equipment and the non-standard methods of running physical vs. vehicle vs. matrix vs. astral stuff.

Shadow
If you enjoy a D&D esq game play SR4. If you like things a little more complex and customizable, not to mention mature, play SR3.
Autarkis
If you enjoy Rolemaster, play SR3. If you enjoy a game that you don't have to track 4 to 5 dice pools other than your skill pools and doesn't have multiple mini-games (Shadowrun: The Matrix, Shadowrun: The Rigger, Shadowrun: The Magic Path, et...), play SR4.
nyahnyah.gif
pragma
CP2020 bleeds atmosphere out of every pore in a way I have never seen a single Shadowrun book match. Its also, as mentioned above, massively unbalanced. To the point of being almost nonsensical.

That said, Shadowrun (at least SR3 and I assume SR4) is a much, much, much better gaming system with well organized rules, better developed rules and a large number of simplifying factors (the ability to purchase a lifestyle for example).
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (nezumi)
Firstly, I'll say the first quote is NOT a fair summation.

SR3 has a *LOT* of neat tools and features which make it preferable to many, many players, over SR4.  Yes, it's more complex to learn than SR4, but think about it, if a group of intelligent people have two systems and one is clearly more complex, yet they prefer the complex one, don't you think there might be a reason why the complex one is preferable?

Seems like I have to end my days as an unfair, stupid person who happend to know just enough of the rules of SR3 to play it without looking them up... wink.gif
parasyte
QUOTE (nezumi)
SR3 has a *LOT* of neat tools and features which make it preferable to many, many players, over SR4. Yes, it's more complex to learn than SR4, but think about it, if a group of intelligent people have two systems and one is clearly more complex, yet they prefer the complex one, don't you think there might be a reason why the complex one is preferable?

Sounds like rose-colored glasses to me *ducks*.
It's like the people who prefer 8 and 16-bit video games to the current generation. They aren't qualitatively better, they're what you grew up with, and because of that you like them more.
blakkie
QUOTE (Shadow)
If you enjoy a D&D esq game play SR4. If you like things a little more complex and customizable, not to mention mature, play SR3.

rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif
Michael K
Mature, manure, something like that anyway. smile.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (nezumi)
As has been pointed out, you can't make a borg in SR, nor a brain in a jar.

You might want to try telling Dr. Halberstam that... grinbig.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Actually, a brain in a jar works fine, as removing body-parts does not cost essence.

This is the best way making a cyborg, too - a drone with a brain.
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