Hi Guys, it's been a long time since I posted here. I've been busy for the last year. This post is long and tedious, which is my style. I know the wording of the chemical rules fairly well, but there are some ambiguities that I see. I'm seeking to resolve these ambiguities in my mind by seeing how others have interpreted the rules. For those that want to look things up, SR3 rules for Toxins start on page 249. MM rules start on page 105, with exposure by weapons on 106 and individual drug descriptions on page 117.

My questions are about how YOU play the chemical rules in your campaign/game.

I'll start out with Drug Speeds. Some common drug/toxin Speeds are 'Instantaneous' (Fugu family, ACTH, Hyper, Laes, MAO), 'Immediate' (Narcoject, Gamma-Scopolamine, Atropine), '1 Combat Turn' (Neuro-Stun VIII, Tear Gas), 5 Combat Turns (Nausea Gas), '10 minutes (Psyche), and '12 hours' (Vitas-3).

1) Drugs with a speed of 'Instantaneous' take effect at the end of the Combat Turn (second sentence under Body Resistance Test, MM.106). Do you play it this way?

2) My dictionary says that 'Immediate' means the same thing 'Instantaneous'. Do you play Immediate drugs the same way you play Instantaneous?

3) A drug with a speed of "1 Combat Turn" affects the character at the end of the following Combat Turn (MM.106, right column, first sentence). Do you play it this way?

4) If a character is shot a second time with a drug before the first shot takes effect (e.g. two shots from a SA pistol that hit in one combat phase) then when the damage takes effect he only rolls ONE body resistance test against an increased Damage Code for the drug, not separate tests against each shot (Additional Dosage, MM.106). Do you play this way?

5) Worn armor is almost useless against Contact Vector drugs. A Secure Jacket (5/3), for example, only reduces the Power of a Contect Vector attack by 1 (half it's impact rating, Exposure via Weapons, MM.106). Since a Secure Jacket only reduces the power of the attack by 1, it's obviously fairly porous and the contact chemical just soaks right through. So Neuro-stun X, applied with either a wet noodle or a capsule round, to someone in a Secure Jacket would be resisted at a 7S Stun instead of an 8S Stun. Do you apply the impact armor protection against all drugs delivered with a weapon, or only some?

6) DMSO allows a drug with an Injection, Inhalation or Ingestion vector to be applied with a Contact vector. (DMSO Game Effects, MM.111). Porous armor (such as Armor Clothing and Kevlar weaves) offer little protection against DMSO, as it soaks right through. Armor Clothing, and Secure Armor Clothing, have B/I ratings of 3/0. Many other Kevlar weaves also have an Impact Rating of 0 or 1. These types of Porous Armor (Armor Clothing and Kevlar Weaves) offer little protection against ALL Contact Vector attack via a weapon. Do you play that DMSO Contact-Vector attacks soak through a Secure Jacket more easily than non-DMSO Contact-Vector attacks?

7) Multiple attacks with the same drug don't do more total damage to a target than the drug's Damage Level + 1 (top left paragraph on MM.107). So a 6S Stun drug (Hyper) might eventually cause physical damage with many many shots, but it won't kill a character even with 10 successful shots. Do you play this way?

I guess that's it for now.
Thanks.
Larry in Redmond WA

1-4) I tend to follow the rules myself, so I play it that way.

5) *blink* didn't see that, thanks for the page ref. I would play it this way myself.

6) Yeah, DMSO makes absorption easier, but doesn't add to the deadliness, just changes the exposure vector. I would play that it follows the same rules as described in the Exposure via Weapons...it just is using a different vector.

7) No, I like the rules that way - if you're trying to kill someone, you need to use the right drug. Some drugs will kill faster than others in overdosing - and this is reflected in the damage code. *shrug* I'd play it that way myself.

I'm interested to see what others say, however.

Actually, I have one question to add in this vein:
When buying chemseal in armor, you reduce the power of the attack by the rating. If the rating is greater than the power of the drug does it bounce, or is it reduced to 2? (I.E. Hazmat would bounce because it's designed to do that - chemseal on armor may not have that comprehensive of protection...like hardened armor versus regular armor)

We play the "delay damage until end of combat turn" depending on the duration (Immediate/Instantaneous -> End of the current combat turn, 1 Combat Turn -> End of the next combat turn), because there will always be at least SOME delay to affect a typical metahuman, physiologically (either through absorption or circulation to primary center of effect).

Most armor is as porous as cheesecloth when it comes to Shadowrun chemical rules (a bit unrealistic, but meh), and if you want more protection, use a Chemsuit or give your armor several points of chemical protection (Cannon Companion armor rules). We treat chemical protection as "hardened armor", which means if the chem protection exceeds the rating of the toxin, the attack will bounce, but I don't believe this is canon.

Yeah I've been playing it like hardened armor myself, but I threw it out there so it could get attention as well - that aspect is not nearly as clear cut as the other points here (IMO, of course.)

[edit] ah HA, now there is an interesting factoid - chem seal armor-addon in CC only reduces against liquid-based chemical attacks...NOT gas. Did not know this...my runners pulled a fast one on me.

Hmm...there seems to be an ambiguity there in the chemseal entry. Here's the quote (pg. 52, CC):

The Gas Mask/Air Tank combo on p116 makes you immune to the inhalation vector, but you are still vulnerable to the contact vector (assuming the gas is contact or inhalation). Thus, you would resist against the toxin with the Power reduced by the rating of the Chemical protection (Rating 5, in your case). While not perfect, it's still pretty good protection. I'd also rule that half Impact armor applies in this case. If the armor also has some way of covering all exposed skin (maybe some optional sleeves, or it's a jumpsuit or something), I'd rule that the half-Impact + Chem protection would be "hardened" vs. that attack.

For what it's worth, the chem protection on my char is her Lvl 3 Form Fit armor, which essentially covers her entire body. She wears Camo Full Suit (4/4) over that.

How do you get 5 points of Chemseal on Form-Fitted Armor? The most you could have according to canon is 4 points.

I don't have the rules in front of me, but from what I recall, you can put as many points of "special" protection as the combined Ballistic/Impact ratings of the armor and Form fit is 4/1. I'll double-check it tonight.

I don't think they're worried too much about military grade nerve gases (or is it THAT kind of campaign?)... they are probably more worried about good ol' Neurostun.

Hm...OK, if I'm reading this right, I need to move 1 points of my Chem protection to something else (ie, Electrical, Heat or Cold). That leaves me with 4 chemical, 1 something-else.

The other thing, if I remember right though, is that you can put 2 points of these modifications on unarmored clothing. If I put 1 or more points there, would the chem protection stack? (and yes, I only wear 1 layer of regular clothing under my armor)

Any comments on whether layers of chemseal stack or not?

I let them fully stack. Mostly because they rarely come into play, they rarely have multiple enhancements, and it cuts down on bookkeepping.

If you wanted to justify stacking by the rules, follow the layring rules and let the highest modification stand plus half the next highest. I know it only talks about ballistic and impact, but why wouldn't all armor mods follow the same rule?

Realisticly, they should stack. Layering is one of the most reliable ways to limit exposure to contact agents even when you don't have any special chemical protection.

I don't think chemseals are hardened against chemical attacks. Generally, chemseals aren't meant to cover the entire body. However, you can rule it any way you like. Personally, I would make them hardened only if wearing full body covering that includes chemsealed socks, gloves, and mask.

Realisticly, it should be fairly easy to stage down military-grade nerve gas. Most people can survive exposure with just an injection of atropine. Many people have survived sarin exposure without even that. Chemical agents are far more effective in Shadowrun that they should realisticly be. Depending on your interperation, Alcohol causes rather severe stun damage.

if your thinking of burn with that comment on alcohol it sounds more like some kind of 96% pure stuff then your avarage bar brand.

hell, there way be something mixed in it to increase the rate that the body absorbs it. maybe something like what they use in those energy drinks. from what i have heard (i dont plan on testing it, just not worth the risk) mixing high end energy drinks and alcohol is a bad idea.

normal, of the shelf beer i would say you may need a six pack just to hit L effect.

burn sounds more like something one may well use to clean stuff rather then drink it

no wonder given that the "antidote" to a nerve gas is a sedative