Full Version: Highest Soak?

A friend said he's making a Dwarf Adept with some power that adds to his body for soaking and that it bypasses the normal modified maximum? Is this right? What's the power called?

QUOTE (Lord Ben) |

A friend said he's making a Dwarf Adept with some power that adds to his body for soaking and that it bypasses the normal modified maximum? Is this right? What's the power called? |

Erm, Mystic Armor?

Does it actually work that way allowing you to have 40-50 soak?

Only if you are an Initate Grade 34-44.

QUOTE (Lord Ben) |

Does it actually work that way allowing you to have 40-50 soak? |

40-50?! No, you can only get as many levels in a power as you have Magic Attribute. The highest I can see for Damage Resistance for a starting adept Dwarf would be using Attribute Boost (which only takes Body to the augmented Max, and no further), and 8/6 armor with 6 points of Mystic Armor, a 1/2 helmet, and perhaps a shield. That's nowhere near 40 (but probably can be higher than 20).

So I can safely assume that if he's saying he has 40 dice with his body plus ballistic armor he's full of it?

QUOTE (Lord Ben) |

So I can safely assume that if he's saying he has 40 dice with his body plus ballistic armor he's full of it? |

Well, not necessarily. I'd invite him to share how he manages to get his dice so high. The maximum value for Body for a dwarf (assuming he gets lucky with Attribute Boost or is using a high force Increase Attribute: Body spell) is 12 (with Exceptional Attribute: Body). Add 6 points of Mystic Armor, 8/6 Armor, 1/2 Helmet, and 6/4 shield and you get a total of 21, which is 33 dice, an impressive amount of soak. I'm not sure where he would get the extra 7 points, but that's pretty close. Maybe he's investing in Bone Density treatment, but that would remove magic points due to Essence loss.

He could also just be using hyperbole (just wanted to use that word) and saying "I'm rolling like 40 dice" when he really means "I'm rolling 15 dice and that seems like a lot to me." Have you seen his sheet?

For one point of ~~Karma~~ Edge, he can reroll any non-successes. In Hahnsoo's example, that would mean an average reroll of 22. Total dice rolled on average would be 55; total expected number of hits would be 18 (11 + 7).

You mean for a point of edge. Yes if he has maxed edge and spends it on every roll he can indeed be rolling 40 dice. Shudder now...

QUOTE (Halabis @ Sep 12 2005, 12:09 PM) |

You mean for a point of edge. Yes if he has maxed edge and spends it on every roll he can indeed be rolling 40 dice. Shudder now... |

Thanks for catching that. One thing, however; your Edge rating is irrelevant when spending a point to reroll non-hits. Regardless of whether you have an Edge of 1 or 7, that one point lets you reroll all non-hits.

33 + 22 + 15 + 10 + 7 + 5 + 4 + 3 = 99 55 dice

and

11 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 31 hits

Who needs 'Hand of God'?

But, you can only throw edge once per roll.

QUOTE ("SR4 p. 67 @ bottom of second column) |

No more than 1point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. If you spent a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge to that test. |

Yeah, the trick is to spend it before and take advantage of exploding dice and the +7.

~J

~J

Ach... forgot about the 'only 1 point' rule. I still think that spending a point after the roll makes more sense than before the rule, especially if your Edge is significantly smaller than the potential number of misses. In the case of 33 dice, spending a point pre-roll to get the Rule of 6 working gives you

33 (base test) + 6 (# of 6's on base test) + 1 (# of 6's on reroll) = 40 dice

on average. Compare this with one point spent for the reroll giving you 55 dice in my original example. Granted, this is an extreme example, but I think it scales down fairly well. Consider Spellcasting with Edge-3, Magic-6 and Spellcasting(Combat) - 3. That one point of Edge will give you either:

12 (base roll) + 2 (re-rolls) = 14 dice on average if spent before the roll

or

9 (base roll) + 6 (re-rolled non-hits) = 15 dice on average if spent after the roll

In addition, waiting until after the rule doesn't limit your options as much as spending it before hand. If your base roll gives you a Critical Success by itself, you won't have wasted any Edge. Conversely, should you get a Critical Glitch, you'll still be able to whip out the Edge and save your hoop.

The only thing the Ro6 has going for it anymore is if your threshold is greater than your dice pool, IMHO.

33 (base test) + 6 (# of 6's on base test) + 1 (# of 6's on reroll) = 40 dice

on average. Compare this with one point spent for the reroll giving you 55 dice in my original example. Granted, this is an extreme example, but I think it scales down fairly well. Consider Spellcasting with Edge-3, Magic-6 and Spellcasting(Combat) - 3. That one point of Edge will give you either:

12 (base roll) + 2 (re-rolls) = 14 dice on average if spent before the roll

or

9 (base roll) + 6 (re-rolled non-hits) = 15 dice on average if spent after the roll

In addition, waiting until after the rule doesn't limit your options as much as spending it before hand. If your base roll gives you a Critical Success by itself, you won't have wasted any Edge. Conversely, should you get a Critical Glitch, you'll still be able to whip out the Edge and save your hoop.

The only thing the Ro6 has going for it anymore is if your threshold is greater than your dice pool, IMHO.

You also get +6 dice to your roll in addition to the explody goodness, so while it's still a bad call in the first example it soundly trounces the reroll in the second (20 dice average instead of 15).

Granted that's with a high edge. As edge goes to 1 the value of the reroll increases.

~J

Granted that's with a high edge. As edge goes to 1 the value of the reroll increases.

~J

When you have the rule of six going, every one of your dice are worth 2/5 of a success on average. When you reroll all failures, all of your dice are worth 5/9 of a success on average.

That means that rerolling failures is worth 7/45 of a success more per die in your test. But ass has been noted, getting the rule of six comes with (your edge) in extra dice. So if 2/5 of your edge is more than 7/45 of your whole dice pool, you should add in an edge before you roll. If not, then you should wait and reroll failures.

Of course, this assumes that you*are* going to spend Edge. Waiting to reroll failures afterwards has the advantage that you can wait and see if you are getting the successes you need before you worry about it - and that's a literally incalcuable advantage.

To see this in action, if you are rolling 33 dice on a damage resistance test, rerolling failures is going to get you an average of 5 and 2/15 more successes than is getting the rule of six. In order to pull ahead, you'd need to have an Edge of 13.

The breakpoint for when you'd be better off spending edge before the roll when you have an edge of 6 is 15 dice. If you are rolling less than 15 dice you should spend the edge to add dice and get the rule of six. If you are rolling more, you should wait and reroll failures (if you need to). The breakpoint for an edge of 5 is 12 dice. The breakpoint for an edge of 4 is 10. The breakpoint for an edge of 3 is 7. For an Edge of 2 it's 5. And for an Edge of 1, you should only buy that die if your starting pool is 1 or 2.

You should**never** spend an edge to negate a glitch or critical glitch, since you can jolly well reroll all the failures for the same cost which will in almost all circumstances negate the glitch anyway.

-Frank

That means that rerolling failures is worth 7/45 of a success more per die in your test. But ass has been noted, getting the rule of six comes with (your edge) in extra dice. So if 2/5 of your edge is more than 7/45 of your whole dice pool, you should add in an edge before you roll. If not, then you should wait and reroll failures.

Of course, this assumes that you

To see this in action, if you are rolling 33 dice on a damage resistance test, rerolling failures is going to get you an average of 5 and 2/15 more successes than is getting the rule of six. In order to pull ahead, you'd need to have an Edge of 13.

The breakpoint for when you'd be better off spending edge before the roll when you have an edge of 6 is 15 dice. If you are rolling less than 15 dice you should spend the edge to add dice and get the rule of six. If you are rolling more, you should wait and reroll failures (if you need to). The breakpoint for an edge of 5 is 12 dice. The breakpoint for an edge of 4 is 10. The breakpoint for an edge of 3 is 7. For an Edge of 2 it's 5. And for an Edge of 1, you should only buy that die if your starting pool is 1 or 2.

You should

-Frank

Oh wow. I thought they'd explicitly forbidden that, but no…

Swiss cheese.

~J

Swiss cheese.

~J

Thanks for taking the time to do the full math, Frank. I'm sure every SR4 munchkin is going to sleep with your little Edge Breakpoint table under their pillow tonight .

I definitely appreciate it from the bottom of my little munchkin heart.

This is insane... I just gotta know how the poll of "liking" SR4 is showing a huge majority in favour of the new system.

QUOTE (Supercilious) |

This is insane... I just gotta know how the poll of "liking" SR4 is showing a huge majority in favour of the new system. |

Easy - Munchkins are happy because there is plenty of stuff to munchkin away to their hearts' content with and the rest of us can play sensibly like we normally do.

Munchkining is like masturbation anyway (eg almost everyone does it once in a while, there are some that can't stop doing it even in public and there are those that are going to bleat loudly that they don't do it and we don't believe them now do we!)

Yes there are rortes and holes in the rules (hell SR3 wasn't perfect - in many ways it was very imperfect) but all up I think SR4 is a better base system.

I am writing up my own custom combat system, I am dissatisfied with SR3/SR4.

I do like a lot of SR4, though I admit. I dunno, at the core it does not feel much better to me though, equal at best.

EDIT: But now I feel like I am thread-jacking into the SR3 vs. SR4 match, so ignore me and I will post more in the other topics.

I do like a lot of SR4, though I admit. I dunno, at the core it does not feel much better to me though, equal at best.

EDIT: But now I feel like I am thread-jacking into the SR3 vs. SR4 match, so ignore me and I will post more in the other topics.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |

Oh wow. I thought they'd explicitly forbidden that, but no… Swiss cheese. |

As the rules are written the only downside to opting for the reroll on a Glitch is that if you Glitch on the reroll as well you are hooped, you cannot use a further Edge point to avoid the Glitch. So it makes it a risky way to respond to Glitches in small dice pools.

QUOTE (Supercilious @ Sep 12 2005, 10:55 PM) |

Because it's SR but w/o the insanity of the SR3 rules. Choose your flavour of insanity, really. I like Butterscotch!

P.S. So far the game is playing fun.

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