It's actually impossible to kill someone (even if the target isn't wearing armor...)with an Ares Preador heavy pistol with a single shot if you have an average agility and even if you are calling the shot to a vital part ... ^_^

Average Agility: 3
Pistol Skill: none

So, the dice pool is 2 (-1 because he is defaulting to agility)

(He can't take aim... because he doesn't have the pistol skill!)

The maximum possible bonus for calling the shot is +1DV (reducing his dice pool to 1 dice...)

So, the maximum damage he can do (before the soak) is : 5P + 1 (Called shot) + 1 probable hit = 7P ? Not enough to kill a man...

And that's only when he is at point blank range...

Or am I wrong?

So kids... you can play with guns in 2070... There is no chance that you kill yourself accidentally... ^_^ Althought it might hurt a bit!

Same applied in SR1, SR2, and SR3. Abstract combat does not equal reality.

Of course you could in SR3. Quickness 3 defaulting, called shot, buy an extra dice with a point of karma and you have a maximum of deadly damage(four dice).

An elf wouldn't even have to spend that point of karma.




- Baatorian

Edit #1 - Oh, and JesterX, take Edge in to consideration. Although without a fine grasp of the rules, at current, I can't/won't argue the point.

Edit #2 - Checking out a table or two. If you assume an average Edge of 3, then that takes your numbers up to 10 damage, not counting exploding dice, which is the magic number for average people with 3 Body.

So it is do-able.

True... ^_^ The same also apply to D&D and a lot more other games...

That's the same as asking "How many arrows it takes to kill a lvl. 1 barbarian"... 2 and if you're really lucky and the barbarian got no constitution bonus...

The only systems I know that doesn't have the problem is Warhammer fantasy roleplay and the Rolemaster system because damage in those systems are open-ended...

Who says a critical glitch has to use the same DV as the pistol if the kid were to shoot it?

But, as for the example, the same can be said for an qui 3 man firing a pistol untrained in SR3. Rules abstractions lead to weirdness.

Quite, Fortune. It was whether you could or not though, I just felt like adding my yearly reply.

I've housed ruled so much about SR3 though that I doubt I could write up a list of modifiers without being flamed. I always allowed defaulting with weapons anyway, I don't have any munchkin players and no serious min/maxers, so it works.




- Baatorian

Yeah, it never really made sense to me that a character couldn't even try something if it was even moderately hard.

Also your average samurai shadowrunner with 4 agi + 4 pistols (+2 semi-auto) + 3 take aim + 1 called shot = 14 dice? Avg. 4 hits?

Vs.. Rent-a-Cop = 3 reaction.. Avg. 1 hit?

So 3 net sucesses.

5p + 3 sucesses + 1 called = 9p

Normal rent a cop = 3/2 bod +8 = 10 boxes physical.

So even a sucessful shadowrunner who carefully calls his shot and takes aim vs. a rent a cop will normally not one shot kill (and I did not even add in armor).

Quite, Fortune. If your players wish to try something unique and not just fire another burst with their AK, why punish them? Techinical skills on the other hand I do agree with to a degree.




- Baatorian

Hey, in D20 Modern a klutz with no weapon proficiencies and a 5 Dexterity can still score a critical hit with a .22 and do 16 points of damage (max on 4d4). That's enough to take a 6 hit point character straight to -10. Clearly, if you guys want realism in firearms you should play D20 Modern!!

[SARCASM] But this whole thread showcases yet one more reason why SR4 is the worst game ever written. The. Worst. What were the designers smoking? Clearly it was the same thing that made them come up with SURGE. Why couldn't they just fix all the things that were wrong with SR3 without changing any of the rules or background? Or if they were going to write a new edition, they should have made sure that it was totally flawless and then released it in 2025 or so. That way I might be dead before I have to actually play it. [/SARCASM].

Seriously guys. Let's just make all rolls open ended and write up some optional combat pool rules before someone gets hurt.

Taking healing rules...

A runner with a gunshot wound.. will naturally heal without ill effects.. even if no medical attention is rendered...

Just making body checks (Body x 2) (1 day) extended test with bedrest.. each success heals a box of damage.

Even with a 10 box character with 9 boxes of physical wounds from multiple gunshots can basically.. "Sleep it off."

Well, flap (may I call you flap?), you've got to think about what 9 boxes represents. Your character is badly injured, and impaired to the tune of -3 dice on everything. On the other hand, that costs you 1 hit on average. Of course, you aren't bleeding out - this is clearly a wound that hasn't nailed an artery or major blood bearing organ. In fact, the worst thing about being at 9 boxes of physical damage is that 1 or 2 more will put you out.

So, yeah, it makes at least a little sense that you might just sleep this one off. Wounds close up - and yours might've been caused by blunt force trauma through your armor anyway. Ultimately, I'd say you should take issue with the Wounding rules. These seem to prevent you from functioning at all when you have a life threatening physical injury - when in fact a great many people continue with some impaired function despite obviously mortal wounds. Likewise, they don't leave enough room for complications like internal bleeding and shock.

I think it's a given that SR was always a set of rules for gaming and never an attempt at firearm or injury simulation.

The only serious question is can play the game and still have fun with, and everyone needs to answer that for themselves.

One thing about roleplaying is we often forget what a normal psychological response will be.

In my game, not only does the person have penalties, but he has his survival instinct kick in. You don't need to kill somebody, you need to stop them from getting you. Getting shot is actually quite very complex. Even if a round does not go through the armour, there is a fair chance that the person wearing the armour is going to fall down, unless he braced for it, and bracing for it means you are going to get shot more than once (static threats/targets have a tendency attracting a lot of attention in a firefight), or there are other variables keeping you standing, but let's not get into that or this post will be even longer than it has to. After that person (most likely) falls down, he is going to go in one of three directions, sit there in a panic (Oh god I'm hit!), move out of the line of fire (Oh crap, I'm hit! Gotta find cover/check for holes!), or try as best he can to get back into it (Sunnova... how'd I get down here!? I gotta get back to work). Now many people will ask for rules, but I just eyeball their willpower and initiative. The higher those two combined are, the better disciplined the person is and the more positive the response will be.

Remember, you don't have to kill a combatant to remove him as a threat, just stop him. Which is where we got that whole "Stopping Power" thing from. But that's another story.

and even if that dont happen, you have just ripped so many new holes in him that he should be bleeding dry very soon unless some medic finds him.

Keep in mind, if memory serves, police firing at fugitives (or whatever word you want to use) less than twenty feet away hit on about one out of every six bullets fired. If you're shooting in the dark at a moving target, I'd keep shooting just to be sure I even hit once!

Heck, you don't even need to get that scientific. Penn and Teller wrapped some melons in duct tape and shot 'em. Every single one jumped TOWARDS the firing position, not away. Even if we go with the Hollywood view, there are many movies where the victim either drops straight down or falls forward.
Of course, if you lose enough blood from a gunshot wound you may lose the strength and/or equilibrium required to remain vertical. If your head starts to spin or your knees start to shake, you'll go down one way or another.
And if you want knockback, play a troll with a melee weapon

thing is tho that said melons had much less mass then a person.

to get the same effect on something with the mass of a human you will need much more force.

this is why a rocket burns most of its fuel right there on the pad as its right then that its at its heavyest.

its pointed to time and again that any weapon that would move the person shot an amount would move the shooter the same amount.

best example i have seen recently is the excelent mythbusters series where they suspended the remains of a pig on a hair trigger rig. they where shooting at it with anything from the smalles handgun to some real sniper rifles.

only time it moved was when it was hit by a shotgun, and then it dropped straight down. so basicly it was only moved so far that it was disconnected from the rig.

your more likely to fall based on the neural pathways from your brain to your legs get cut or interrupted then from the force of the bullet.

huh? sorry but i have no idea what your talking about...

maybe so, but the point that you end up moving the shooter around if you move the target around still stands...

Hmm. Has anybody figured the PAIN into this argument? It´s rather hard to stay on your feet when you´re close to fainting from a sudden pain.

Pain takes a while to take effect, and it's totally unreliable as a method of incapacitation with a conventional firearm. Neurological shock is just as unreliable, but at least that can take effect immediately.