One of my favorite things about previous editions was the proportional nature of wound levels. That is, a wound level was simply 10% of an incapacitating wound for whoever you inflicted it on, and tougher people and creatures simply took less wound levels in an attack. This meant that the game was theoretically scaleable out to naval ship-to-ship combat and down to rats boxing for supremacy over a nest. It didn't actually work out that way because variable TNs made things screwy at a number of breakpoints - but the idea was sound. And now in SR4, we have static TNs, so we could have a system in which it reall did scale smoothly all the way up to volcano gods exchanging blows with nuclear battlecruisers if that's what you wanted to do. Except... SR4 abandoned the concept of proportional damage in favor of White Wolf's wound system. I think that's a shame. And I would like to do something about it.
The problem is: it's really hard.
Picking a proportional scale is really easy, easier than the current slightly moving scale. You just pick a number of boxes, and everyone has that many. Obvious choices would be 10 (because it's traditional), 12 (because it's divisible by so many numbers) or 15 (because it's the maximum health levels a player character is likely to see in the current rules). This neatly solves such problems as the vulnerability of Trolls to gel rounds, but it hasn't gone all the way to making damage proportional. To really work, not only do the number of wounds that a character has have to be constant, but the amount of wounds a character suffers from an attack should be relatively constant as the character and the attack are scaled up.
Problem 1: Body is already lame.
In a standard attack resolution, your reaction dice are just as good as your body dice (in that a success counters an attack success and therefore removes 1 DV), but also has the additional advantage that enough successes will reduce the damage to Stun (by dropping the modified DV to less than your modified armor), or even nothing (by reducing the net successes on the attack to zero or less so that it misses outright). In addition, Reaction is added to more and better skills (Pilot Groundcraft as opposed to Parachuting, for example). So Body is kind of craptastic, even in the normal rules where your 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th point of body come with an extra wound level of physical damage. In a proportional system, Body is going to be even worse unless its role as damage sponge is substantively improved.
Problem 2: Willpower is already lame.
Anything you can say that's bad about Body can be said about Willpower. When was the last time you made a Survival check? What about an Ettiquette check? Charisma adds just as much to Drain as Willpower does (for shamans), so Willpower is on shaky grounds even for magicians. Certainly taking Willpower's ability to give you extra Stun boxes is kicking a weak stat while it's down.
But these are problems which I think can be overcome, possibly even rectified to the point that they join the ranks of stats like Intuition and Agility that people actively seek out.
Scaling Damage:
The first task to complete is to make adding a number to an attacker's strength cancel out with a character adding an equal amount to their body. This is non-trivial, because there exist multiple standards already in place:
* An unarmed guy doing nothing special gains 1 DV every 2 Strength.
* An attacker using their best weapon or skills gains 2 DV for every 2 Strength.
* A marginally prepared enemy will gain somewhere between 1 and 2 DV from 2 points of strength.
Well, getting 2 Body gives you two dice, which negates 2/3 of a DV. So that's obviously low. There's a couple of possibilities here:
* Extra Armor: a character gains 1 Armor for every 2 Body points. This has the drawback that you have to roll extra dice, and it sets the conversion of Body to damage reduction at 1 DV per 2 Body.
* DV reduction: a character simply suffers 1 less DV for every three Body they have. This has the advantage that it makes for no more dice rolling, and sets the conversion of Body to damage reduction at 4/3 of a DV per 2 Body.
* Both Armor and DV reduction: a character gains 1 armor per body point, and negates one incoming DV for every three body points. This is pretty easy to remember, but it's a lot of dice rolling, and it sets the damage reduction potential of Body at 2 DV per body point.
That's a tough call. Should Body be keeping up with the low end (punches), the high end (bows, wrestling), or somewhere in between (blades)?
---
Making Willpower Not Blow:
OK, I've always liked Willpower being used to remain concious under duress. But I also like proportional damage and Trolls being at least as resistant to punches as they are to armor piercing bullets. So Willpower should work differently than it does now.
How about if we take a page from the old M&M rules and have Willpower keep you awake for both kinds of damage? For example, if the number of boxes you could take before passing out was 7 + your Willpower, while the number of boxes you could take before you died was 15, there would be a good solid reason for people to have willpower. And it would even make sense that people who had more boxes before unconciousness would suffer larger wound penalties before they passed out. They'd just be holding on until they were that much closer to death, rather than being that much closer to death be that much more debillitating for tough people as in the standard SR4 rules.
---
Obviously, these numbers need to be played around with a bot. But I want my proportional damage system back.
-Frank
Full Version: Proportional Damage
We disagree on alot of things Frank so I'm going to take a stab at things here if you don't mind to incredibly much.
Porportional damage: Eh....Staging didn't work that great in sr3. Hell if you had enough dice and karma pool, you could take out a troll in one shot from a hold out pistol. Now its alot harder to do something so ludicrouse.
Furthermore Shadowruns damage system while somewhat similar to the new WoD games, where damage is poroprtional to the individual. Someone with a higher body, built better, ect, is going to be able to take more punishment than your frail friend overthere who looks like if a strong wind blew he'd be toast. SR3 did not account for this. Yes you didn't have as much body as the other guy but....you could take exactly the same amount of damage.
Lets move onto Body and why it may or may not be 'lame'
Body realy when you think about it is no less or more lame than it was in 3rd. Combat pool could be spent to completely dodge a attack. Now you have the same thing, but it happens more regularly, though not always with anywhere near the success of spending combat pool in 3rd. Body is a measure of physical toughness. And thats what it ends up being. I'm sorry a stat being a measure of what its supposed to stand for is something you dislike but well such is life. What skills would you base off of body? Well diving and parachuting. Makes sense to me, two skills where natural toughness comes in handy.
Ok next point 'Willpower is already lame'
Your argument is, willpower is weak because charisma adds to drain for shamans, and you rarely make survival rolls, and oh wait don't forget its barely usefull for stun damage. Wait what? So its not important to have a halfway decent Willpower for drain? Hmm that doesn't make sense at all, and oh wait, its the linked attribute for Astral Combat. Yes no mage who will ever touch the astral plane will ever want willpower as a attribute
.
Porportional damage: Eh....Staging didn't work that great in sr3. Hell if you had enough dice and karma pool, you could take out a troll in one shot from a hold out pistol. Now its alot harder to do something so ludicrouse.
Furthermore Shadowruns damage system while somewhat similar to the new WoD games, where damage is poroprtional to the individual. Someone with a higher body, built better, ect, is going to be able to take more punishment than your frail friend overthere who looks like if a strong wind blew he'd be toast. SR3 did not account for this. Yes you didn't have as much body as the other guy but....you could take exactly the same amount of damage.
Lets move onto Body and why it may or may not be 'lame'
Body realy when you think about it is no less or more lame than it was in 3rd. Combat pool could be spent to completely dodge a attack. Now you have the same thing, but it happens more regularly, though not always with anywhere near the success of spending combat pool in 3rd. Body is a measure of physical toughness. And thats what it ends up being. I'm sorry a stat being a measure of what its supposed to stand for is something you dislike but well such is life. What skills would you base off of body? Well diving and parachuting. Makes sense to me, two skills where natural toughness comes in handy.
Ok next point 'Willpower is already lame'
Your argument is, willpower is weak because charisma adds to drain for shamans, and you rarely make survival rolls, and oh wait don't forget its barely usefull for stun damage. Wait what? So its not important to have a halfway decent Willpower for drain? Hmm that doesn't make sense at all, and oh wait, its the linked attribute for Astral Combat. Yes no mage who will ever touch the astral plane will ever want willpower as a attribute
.| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Hell if you had enough dice and karma pool, you could take out a troll in one shot from a hold out pistol. Now its alot harder to do something so ludicrouse. |
What? I don't see anything ludicrous or even weird about killing a troll with a hold-out pistol. You can kill a cow with a hold-out if you know what you are doing, and the cow can outmass the troll by 200 kg! But regardless, I think you are overestimating the difficulty of taking a troll down with a hold-out in SR4.
Edit: Body rounds up]/b], not [b]down. D'oh!
A Troll could easily have a Body of 9. In fact, virtually all PC Trolls will have a Body of 9 for a number of reasons (it costs so much to raise body later so you want to start with as much as possible, starting with a 10 is, however, prohibitively expensive, and a body of 9 gives you an extra damage box and a 10 doesn't). So the Troll has 13 damage boxes. The Troll also rolls 10 damage resistance dice before the 8/6 armor jacket.
The holdout pistol on the other hand, is a Fichetti Sting and does 6P with an armor modifier of +2. The Troll has 9 Body and a modified impact armor of 9, that's 18 dice, and could expect to get 6 successes in damage resistance. The Hold-Out User is going to be rolling a lot of dice, so she'll take a called shot for +4 DV at the cost of 4 attack dice. So the Holdout has a base damage of 10P, and the Troll is getting 6 successes in reducing that damage (but taking physical from the pistol). The hold-out firer needs 9 successes therefore to one-shot take-down the troll, and she used up 4 dice for the called shot. But she's spending an Edge on this, so 5/9 of the dice rolled come up successes.
So on average, if our character has 20 (starting character examples include Elven Adepts, people with specializations in Hold-Outs, or just plain characters who have been using Aim actions) dice and is willing to spend an edge, she can drop a 9 body Troll wearing an armor jacket in one shot with a hold-out pistol. That's on average. So no, I don't think it's difficult for a character rolling enough dice and willing to spend edge to take down a troll with a hold-out pistol. Of course, I also don't that it's unreasonable to take down a troll in one shot with a hold-out pistol either, so there you go.
| QUOTE (SP) |
| Body realy when you think about it is no less or more lame than it was in 3rd. Combat pool could be spent to completely dodge a attack. |
That's just it though, in 3rd edition, combat pool used in that way was spent. ou didn't have it anymore after you used it for one attack. In SR4, you get your Reaction against every attack. Each subsequent attack subtracts one from your reaction roll, but in this system that's the same as saying that characters get +1 die for each subsequent attack they make. Essentially, SR4 has implemented a negative recoil system and allowed people to have a "combat pool stat" that refreshes between every attack. Which leaves Body being pretty lame, yes.
-Frank
That is the most laughable example I have ever seen. Lets give the hold out user certain advantages but not give the troll advantages. Wow congrats.
Lets move onto reality and pit two equaly well equiped characters against each other.
Since you love the adept there. Lets give him agil 6 and pistols 6 with a specialization in your holdout pistol of choice. Lets give him 6 more dice from adept powers and hell we'll even throw in a smartlink giving a grand total of (6+6+2+6+2) 22 dice.
Now lets look at the troll. Lets give him Body 9. Lets make him a adept too so everything is fair. Lets give him a equal amount of mystic armor to be fair. and lets give him that armor jacket.
Alright so to resist this shot the Troll has 9+6+6+2+1 25 dice to resist with. Lets give him average reaction as well giving him 3 dice to dodge the original attack. We won't have him go on full defense either.
So off the bat your adept will only be doing stun more than likely as the troll's base armor at the moment is at a monumental 13. So 1/3 of the adepts dice and we'll round up to be 8. So we're looking at a DV of 14 atm tieing the trolls armor. But we'll also assume the troll gets 1/3 hits on his reaction roll so the total DV is 13. Stun damage. We'll assume once again only 1/3 hits and round up again to be fair. which nets the troll with 9 hits.
So what does that mean. The troll has taken 4 boxes of stun.
I didn't bother using edge or glitches in there because i'm not in the mood to do that much math. Either way giving them equal edge it still ends up essentialy the same.
But lets add in your called shot. and see how it works out. 6 net hits for the adept even. so a total DV of 16. He dodges as per the last example DV of 15. still has a effective armor of 15 vs the pistol so its still stun damage. But this time he takes 6 boxes of stun.
Still not physicaly hurt. And no where near dead.
I'm sorry your example fails horribly when pitted against equal characters.
Lets drop the adept part now.
So the adept will be doing physical and we drop 2 net successes from the soak roll. (note we didn't even give him the benefit of cyberware here and for shits and giggles i'll keep the called shot modifiers in) Ok so the troll ends up taking dum dum dum, 8 boxes physical. The troll having 13 boxes is still in reasonable shape considering.
So to sumerize what I just showed you. Your adept tried to oneshot another adept with equal abilities, and did only stun damage, even with a called shot. Your adept then was pitted against your average high body troll. No cyberware or anything else to help him out. And using just averages only took 8 physical damage. Neither troll was one shotted as you would suggest would happen on average. The troll was not even given the benefit of a full dodge, and neither were given the chance to use edge.
Lets move onto reality and pit two equaly well equiped characters against each other.
Since you love the adept there. Lets give him agil 6 and pistols 6 with a specialization in your holdout pistol of choice. Lets give him 6 more dice from adept powers and hell we'll even throw in a smartlink giving a grand total of (6+6+2+6+2) 22 dice.
Now lets look at the troll. Lets give him Body 9. Lets make him a adept too so everything is fair. Lets give him a equal amount of mystic armor to be fair. and lets give him that armor jacket.
Alright so to resist this shot the Troll has 9+6+6+2+1 25 dice to resist with. Lets give him average reaction as well giving him 3 dice to dodge the original attack. We won't have him go on full defense either.
So off the bat your adept will only be doing stun more than likely as the troll's base armor at the moment is at a monumental 13. So 1/3 of the adepts dice and we'll round up to be 8. So we're looking at a DV of 14 atm tieing the trolls armor. But we'll also assume the troll gets 1/3 hits on his reaction roll so the total DV is 13. Stun damage. We'll assume once again only 1/3 hits and round up again to be fair. which nets the troll with 9 hits.
So what does that mean. The troll has taken 4 boxes of stun.
I didn't bother using edge or glitches in there because i'm not in the mood to do that much math. Either way giving them equal edge it still ends up essentialy the same.
But lets add in your called shot. and see how it works out. 6 net hits for the adept even. so a total DV of 16. He dodges as per the last example DV of 15. still has a effective armor of 15 vs the pistol so its still stun damage. But this time he takes 6 boxes of stun.
Still not physicaly hurt. And no where near dead.
I'm sorry your example fails horribly when pitted against equal characters.
Lets drop the adept part now.
So the adept will be doing physical and we drop 2 net successes from the soak roll. (note we didn't even give him the benefit of cyberware here and for shits and giggles i'll keep the called shot modifiers in) Ok so the troll ends up taking dum dum dum, 8 boxes physical. The troll having 13 boxes is still in reasonable shape considering.
So to sumerize what I just showed you. Your adept tried to oneshot another adept with equal abilities, and did only stun damage, even with a called shot. Your adept then was pitted against your average high body troll. No cyberware or anything else to help him out. And using just averages only took 8 physical damage. Neither troll was one shotted as you would suggest would happen on average. The troll was not even given the benefit of a full dodge, and neither were given the chance to use edge.
| QUOTE |
| So off the bat your adept will only be doing stun more than likely as the troll's base armor at the moment is at a monumental 13. |
Um.... to determine whether you are doing Stun or Physical damage you use the modified DV. That includes the net hits from the attack test as well as the extra DV from the called shot. So a character with 22 Dice can expect to do physical damage against anyone with 15 or less armor before she even spends edge.
| QUOTE |
| I'm sorry your example fails horribly when pitted against equal characters. |
So does yours. In SR3, an invulno-troll is going to be looking for 2s against a hold out pistol even if it's throwing around APDS. The person firing the holdout has a smart link, so they are looking for 2s as well. In order to take the Troll down, the firer would need to roll enough net successes to stage a light wound up to deadly. And that's just not going to happen against the more than 20 body dice that an invulno-troll could run around with. In fact, an SR3 damage resistance troll could easily get enough hardened armor to automatically take zero damage from a hold-out.
So if your original statement of "Hell if you had enough dice and karma pool, you could take out a troll in one shot from a hold out pistol." was meant to mean "A super ninja could take down a half-way decent Troll with a hold-out", then the answer is that they still can. If it was meant as "A super ninja could take down a Troll damage sponge", then the answer is actually that they couldn't before and now they can.
It's become harder to become invulnerable to light arms in SR4 than it was in SR3.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| That is the most laughable example I have ever seen. |
Frank is? Ya, i suppose.
Oh my this makes me giggle.
Pitting equal chars against each other and his example fails. Which is somewhat to be expected.
But then pitting the normal char vs his twinked out char...still can't one shot him. And thats when the troll is STANDING STILL and they're less than 5m apart. If the trolls moving, or they're any farther apart than 15 feet your example breaks down even more. Yet you still somehow claim that your twink could kill just your average high body troll in one shot. Did you even care to read the entire thing?
I just disproved your example using a standard troll with 9 body as you did with just a armor jacket.
Yes you typicaly take more damage in sr4. Its very hard to take no damage at all. But you can't easily one shot the troll. Sorry frank. You loose.
Pitting equal chars against each other and his example fails. Which is somewhat to be expected.
But then pitting the normal char vs his twinked out char...still can't one shot him. And thats when the troll is STANDING STILL and they're less than 5m apart. If the trolls moving, or they're any farther apart than 15 feet your example breaks down even more. Yet you still somehow claim that your twink could kill just your average high body troll in one shot. Did you even care to read the entire thing?
I just disproved your example using a standard troll with 9 body as you did with just a armor jacket.
Yes you typicaly take more damage in sr4. Its very hard to take no damage at all. But you can't easily one shot the troll. Sorry frank. You loose.
Okay...you think SR3 damage is more scaleable than SR4?
SR3 Troll:
9 Body
3 Willpower
10 Physical Boxes
10 Stun Boxes
Roll combat pool to decrease damage (staging down.)
Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.)
or
Roll combat pool in Full Defense (removing successes)
Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.)
SR4 Troll:
9 Body
3 Willpower
15 Physical Boxes
10 Stun Boxes
Roll reaction to reduce hits (pre-DV)
Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV)
or
Roll reaction+dodge in full defense to reduce hits (pre-DV)
Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV)
Do I have those two correct?
(Note: Don't have my book..so I think the # of boxes might be off for SR4)
SR3 Troll:
9 Body
3 Willpower
10 Physical Boxes
10 Stun Boxes
Roll combat pool to decrease damage (staging down.)
Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.)
or
Roll combat pool in Full Defense (removing successes)
Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.)
SR4 Troll:
9 Body
3 Willpower
15 Physical Boxes
10 Stun Boxes
Roll reaction to reduce hits (pre-DV)
Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV)
or
Roll reaction+dodge in full defense to reduce hits (pre-DV)
Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV)
Do I have those two correct?
(Note: Don't have my book..so I think the # of boxes might be off for SR4)
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Sorry frank. You loose. |
Careful, he might get huffy at you for your spelling mistake.
| QUOTE (blakkie) | ||
Careful, he might get huffy at you for your spelling mistake. |
Now now blakkie, if I didn't have the spelling mistake what would he have to say my example is complete crap? Have to give frank a little bit of a fighting chance here
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| Furthermore Shadowruns damage system while somewhat similar to the new WoD games, where damage is poroprtional to the individual. Someone with a higher body, built better, ect, is going to be able to take more punishment than your frail friend overthere who looks like if a strong wind blew he'd be toast. SR3 did not account for this. Yes you didn't have as much body as the other guy but....you could take exactly the same amount of damage. |
You might want to make sure you understand how the damage monitor actually works in SR3 before you start spouting off about the differences between it and SR4...
Also, before your dislocate your shoulder or hurt your back, why don't you actually demonstrate how it was possible - using equal opponents - to one-shot a troll with a holdout pistol in SR3.
| QUOTE (Autarkis @ Sep 15 2005, 11:38 AM) |
| Okay...you think SR3 damage is more scaleable than SR4? |
Not exactly. I think that previous editions had the potential of having scaling damage with the static dmaage boxes. They didn't really achieve this goal, because when TNs got above 5 the number of dice needed to get a success was bizzarely high.
SR4 has the potential of having scaling damage because of the static TNs, but fails because the variable number of damage boxes.
| QUOTE |
| SR3 Troll: 9 Body 3 Willpower 10 Physical Boxes 10 Stun Boxes Roll combat pool to decrease damage (staging down.) Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.) or Roll combat pool in Full Defense (removing successes) Roll body to decrease damage (staging down.) |
That's correct. Also the attack roll is Firearms + Combat Pool up to Firearms Skill. That's an important consideration because while the number of combat pool dice you could send into defense was uncapped, the number of combat pool dice sent into attack was capped. Als, full defense used up combat pool but did not use up actions.
| QUOTE |
| SR4 Troll: 9 Body 3 Willpower 15 Physical Boxes 10 Stun Boxes Roll reaction to reduce hits (pre-DV) Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV) or Roll reaction+dodge in full defense to reduce hits (pre-DV) Roll body to decrease damage (subtract hits and DV) |
That's wrong in a couple of cases. First, the Troll with 9 body has only 13 boxes of physical. Secondly, the body successes don't subtract hits and DV, they just negate DV. All the successes have at this point already been converted into DV and then compared to the armor to determine if it does physical damage.
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| Pitting equal chars against each other and his example fails. Which is somewhat to be expected. |
It's not my example, this was your example! You said that a highly skilled character with a lot of karma pool to burn could take down "a troll" with a hold-out. And if by "a troll" you mean some troll bouncer in a club, that's still true. In fact, it's even more true, because karma pool is now the Edge stat, so you can pull that trick off as a starting character.
If you meant "a highly specialized damage sponge" by "a troll", then it was never true in any edition of Shadowrun. In fact, this is the first edition of Shadowrun where a highly skilled character had a reasonable chance of inflicting serious damage on a trollish specialized damage sponge. So your example of the contrast in damage between SR3 and SR4 is wrong. Stop trying to derail this conversation with personal attacks edit: this was not appropriate.
-Frank
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
You might want to make sure you understand how the damage monitor actually works in SR3 before you start spouting off about the differences between it and SR4... Also, before your dislocate your shoulder or hurt your back, why don't you actually demonstrate how it was possible - using equal opponents - to one-shot a troll with a holdout pistol in SR3. |
MMu1 I am quite versed in how the damage monitor in sr3 worked. It was crap in my opinion.
Everyone could take the same amount of damage. Some people had a easier time at resisting that damage than others yes. But in the end, they could take the same amount of damage. 10 boxes. Each representing 10% of your life. Modifiers went up when you hit 10% of your life 30% and 70%. If you had a high enough body, and good enough armor, you could completely ignore damage. And if you had average body you could easily die. However loosing that first 10% was crippling tn wise. And anything up to 10% of your life taken away there was no way to actualy show it. Being well built only ment that you could take as much punishment as everyone else, you were just a little bit better at ignoring it.
As for making one shotting a troll in sr3, when I have access to my sr3 books I'll go ahead and draw up two characters on the same level and give you my example.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
It's not my example, this was your example! You said that a highly skilled character with a lot of karma pool to burn could take down "a troll" with a hold-out. And if by "a troll" you mean some troll bouncer in a club, that's still true. In fact, it's even more true, because karma pool is now the Edge stat, so you can pull that trick off as a starting character. If you meant "a highly specialized damage sponge" by "a troll", then it was never true in any edition of Shadowrun. In fact, this is the first edition of Shadowrun where a highly skilled character had a reasonable chance of inflicting serious damage on a trollish specialized damage sponge. So your example of the contrast in damage between SR3 and SR4 is wrong. Stop trying to derail this conversation with personal attacks edit: this was not appropriate. -Frank |
Frank, did you care to read the SECOND part of the example? hrm?
If you had even bothered to READ the second part, you would see your twinked out character still failing to kill the body 9 troll you used as a example even with the called shot.
Yet you focus on the first part. As if it somehow discredited the second part.
You claimed that the adept could easily on average kill that troll let me get the quote for you.
| QUOTE |
| So on average, if our character has 20 (starting character examples include Elven Adepts, people with specializations in Hold-Outs, or just plain characters who have been using Aim actions) dice and is willing to spend an edge, she can drop a 9 body Troll wearing an armor jacket in one shot with a hold-out pistol. That's on average. |
And I proved in the second part of the example that even without the benefit of a full defense action the Troll still has 5 boxes of damage left to be dealt to him before he goes down. Thats ofcourse without adding edge into the mix. And even if they were both to say spend edge on their rolls before rolling, i'm prety sure the chances even out even then especialy since the troll has a chance to spend 2 edge, one for the dodge roll, and then one for the soak roll. He I think actualy makes out better in the end if you calculate edge into it.
So before you tell me that my example is crap look at the second part frank.
| QUOTE |
| Everyone could take the same amount of damage. Some people had a easier time at resisting that damage than others yes. But in the end, they could take the same amount of damage. 10 boxes. Each representing 10% of your life. |
Your complaint is that everyone had 100% of their life? I'm pretty sure that's how it works in every system ever printed. Some games cause toughness to make you have a larger total of points that represent your 100%, other games cause you to suffer lower percentage life-loss against attacks. In the big picture, these two systems are identical.
SR3 damage had serious problems. Mostly this had to do with autofire, which moved TNs around. But SR4 has serious problems with scaleability as well. The fact that it attempts to change both the amount of boxes that represent your life and the amount of boxes you lose against individual attacks means that it does neither well. A damage box does not have a static meaning and an attack does not inflict a static amount of damage boxes. This means that there is no reference point. At all. For anything.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| MMu1 I am quite versed in how the damage monitor in sr3 worked. It was crap in my opinion. Everyone could take the same amount of damage. Some people had a easier time at resisting that damage than others yes. But in the end, they could take the same amount of damage. 10 boxes. Each representing 10% of your life. Modifiers went up when you hit 10% of your life 30% and 70%. If you had a high enough body, and good enough armor, you could completely ignore damage. And if you had average body you could easily die. However loosing that first 10% was crippling tn wise. And anything up to 10% of your life taken away there was no way to actualy show it. Being well built only ment that you could take as much punishment as everyone else, you were just a little bit better at ignoring it. |
I see. A Body 3 human and a Body 12 troll could, according to you, take the same amount of damage.
And every stereo with a dial from 0-10 plays just as loud as when set to "5".
And every car has burned exactly as much gas when its fuel gage is at 1/2...
| QUOTE |
| As for making one shotting a troll in sr3, when I have access to my sr3 books I'll go ahead and draw up two characters on the same level and give you my example. |
I'll be looking forward to seeing how you'll stack the odds, because it ain't happening in anything resembling a normal SR scenario...
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||||
I see. A Body 3 human and a Body 12 troll could, according to you, take the same amount of damage. And every stereo with a dial from 0-10 plays just as loud as when set to "5". And every car has burned exactly as much gas when its fuel gage is at 1/2...
I'll be looking forward to seeing how you'll stack the odds, because it ain't happening in anything resembling a normal SR scenario... |
The examples made for sr4 weren't anywhere near reasonable either. Infact it took the troll standing still and within 15 feet to do the damage it did.
In sr3 thats exactly the way it was your body had very little effect on how much damage you could actualy take. Whereas in sr4 it does affect how much damage you can actualy take. 10 boxes as opposed to 8+(bod/2)
Granted the 10 boxes were to measure a percentage of life. And yet still it didn't calculate for anything under 10%. And technicaly by the rules you could take a infanate number of 5% wounds as theres no way to track them or add them up.
| QUOTE |
| Infact it took the troll standing still and within 15 feet to do the damage it did. |
Right. That's what a hold-out pistol is for. That's what it does. Since your opponent has to spot your weapon to be "in combat" before the bullet hits them, a hold-out is a dreadfully effective weapon. They have to beat your Palming test with their Perception test just to get to use their reaction at all. And a hold-out specialist can virtually guaranty that that aint going to happen.
Yeah, in SR4, hold-outs are deadly. Really deadly. It's the first edition where this was true, and I for one think this is a feature of SR4. I'm glad that people can seriously kill other people with streetline specials - that's realistic and cool.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
Right. That's what a hold-out pistol is for. That's what it does. Since your opponent has to spot your weapon to be "in combat" before the bullet hits them, a hold-out is a dreadfully effective weapon. They have to beat your Palming test with their Perception test just to get to use their reaction at all. And a hold-out specialist can virtually guaranty that that aint going to happen. Yeah, in SR4, hold-outs are deadly. Really deadly. It's the first edition where this was true, and I for one think this is a feature of SR4. I'm glad that people can seriously kill other people with streetline specials - that's realistic and cool. -Frank |
I'll agree with you on that atleast Frank. Though I am sorely missing my walther palm pistol
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 02:23 PM) |
| The examples made for sr4 weren't anywhere near reasonable either. Infact it took the troll standing still and within 15 feet to do the damage it did. In sr3 thats exactly the way it was your body had very little effect on how much damage you could actualy take. Whereas in sr4 it does affect how much damage you can actualy take. 10 boxes as opposed to 8+(bod/2) Granted the 10 boxes were to measure a percentage of life. And yet still it didn't calculate for anything under 10%. And technicaly by the rules you could take a infanate number of 5% wounds as theres no way to track them or add them up. |
So why did you even bother saying that in SR3 you could take down a troll with a holdout pistol, if it can only happen if you hideously stack the odds? It doesn't prove a point any more than saying "A street sam could kill a great dragon".
As far as damage goes... I'm not sure we're talking about the same game here. True, armor mattered a great deal in SR3, but all things being equal, the Body score had an enormous impact on how much damage you took.
And if you think the gas tank example I posted really reflects how the damage monitor works in SR3, you're missing the point - what I'm trying to say is that tougher characters in SR3 are the equivalent of a car with better gas mileage - and the scale used is purely arbitrary. It reflects how much damage you're taking - it doesn't determine it.
Finally, your last couple of objections about the SR3 damage monitor carry over to SR4 as well - the vast majority of SR4 characters will have a damage monitor in the 9-12 range, which really changes nothing, statistically speaking. You still can't calculate those "5% wounds".
But you can have wounds that don't imediately start crippling a character as well. Which sr3 did not allow for.
And body determining how well you could soak a attack? Bah it did not if you had any sort of weapon. Armor was the end all be all in sr3 Body meant squat if you didn't have armor. A heavy pistol was 9M damage. a body 12 person on average would have 2 6's and one of those would yield a single success.
I thought armor in sr3 was a joke as well.
And the example was there to disprove Frank's claim that on average that adept could kill a 9 body troll wearing a armor jacket.
And body determining how well you could soak a attack? Bah it did not if you had any sort of weapon. Armor was the end all be all in sr3 Body meant squat if you didn't have armor. A heavy pistol was 9M damage. a body 12 person on average would have 2 6's and one of those would yield a single success.
I thought armor in sr3 was a joke as well.
And the example was there to disprove Frank's claim that on average that adept could kill a 9 body troll wearing a armor jacket.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| But you can have wounds that don't imediately start crippling a character as well. Which sr3 did not allow for. And body determining how well you could soak a attack? Bah it did not if you had any sort of weapon. Armor was the end all be all in sr3 Body meant squat if you didn't have armor. A heavy pistol was 9M damage. a body 12 person on average would have 2 6's and one of those would yield a single success. |
SR4 wound mods have too little effect, as far as I'm concerned - most people can't survive long enough to have a -4 mod, which means -3 is generally what you get for being on death's door, which amounts to, on average, one lost hit.
And neither armor nor Body is the end-all, be-all in SR - armor is more important, especially once you have at least 6 or so Body, but to be effective, you need both. Anything else is hyperbole.
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
SR4 wound mods have too little effect, as far as I'm concerned - most people can't survive long enough to have a -4 mod, which means -3 is generally what you get for being on death's door, which amounts to, on average, one lost hit. And neither armor nor Body is the end-all, be-all in SR - armor is more important, especially once you have at least 6 or so Body, but to be effective, you need both. Anything else is hyperbole. |
I wear 6 points of Ballistic armor in sr3 vs a colt manhunter with non apds rounds.
with 4 body I'm likely going to stage just a standard 9m hit to a L on average with 6 points of armor.
with 4 body against a 9 I'm not likely to get one success much less 2.
So realy, not having a high armor was crippling in sr3.
You think the sr3 system is better with its modifiers, I don't. I like the sr4 system, you don't
On average an elven adept rolling 20 dice on an attack with any reasonable weapon against a troll who is rolling 4 dice for reaction and then 18 dice for soak is NOT going to one hit kill them.
Sure it can happen, but not on average. I am horrible at math and I at least know its true.
Sure it can happen, but not on average. I am horrible at math and I at least know its true.
| QUOTE |
| You think the sr3 system is better with its modifiers, I don't. I like the sr4 system, you don't |
No. TN modifiers in previous editions got crazy real fast. Dice modifiers in SR4 get meaningless really quick. As has been pointed out, a die shift in SR4 is often pretty small. It's a step in the right direction, but often SR4 goes too far.
Crippling modifiers in SR3 were often only +2 to the TN, and that often gets converted into a die shift of 2. But you won't even notice a die shift of two almost half the time!
Really, every +/-1 TN in SR3 should be about equal to 3 dice being added or subtracted. Now, many of the TN modifiers in the previous edition were too large to begin with, but that doesn't mean that universally cutting all modifiers in 3 or more is necessarily a good idea either.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| No. TN modifiers in previous editions got crazy real fast. Dice modifiers in SR4 get meaningless really quick. As has been pointed out, a die shift in SR4 is often pretty small. It's a step in the right direction, but often SR4 goes too far. Crippling modifiers in SR3 were often only +2 to the TN, and that often gets converted into a die shift of 2. But you won't even notice a die shift of two almost half the time! Really, every +/-1 TN in SR3 should be about equal to 3 dice being added or subtracted. Now, many of the TN modifiers in the previous edition were too large to begin with, but that doesn't mean that universally cutting all modifiers in 3 or more is necessarily a good idea either. -Frank |
Man, you must roll a shitload of 5's then.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| I wear 6 points of Ballistic armor in sr3 vs a colt manhunter with non apds rounds. with 4 body I'm likely going to stage just a standard 9m hit to a L on average with 6 points of armor. with 4 body against a 9 I'm not likely to get one success much less 2. So realy, not having a high armor was crippling in sr3. |
I play a character with a Body of 9 in SR3, and I've been in many situations where I was able to stage down D damage to nothing when a Body 4-5 character with comparable armor would have been hosed. *shrug*
And not having armor should be crippling in a primarily firearm-based system... It certainly makes more sense than getting hit a lot more, but taking less damage from each blow, which is what SR4 does.
Facts :
1 A integral armor (like 8/6) does almost nothing against a ares predator in sr3 - since the wearer Has one in body (who would dare saying it is a well designed rule ?).
2 A holdout pistol should LOGICALLY be able to kill a troll in sr3 or sr4 if hanged at 2 cm of its (natural) eye, with the right angle, and if the skull doesn't stop the bullet before it damage the brain.
3 I am very happy they stopped using that variable tn mess-around !
1 A integral armor (like 8/6) does almost nothing against a ares predator in sr3 - since the wearer Has one in body (who would dare saying it is a well designed rule ?).
2 A holdout pistol should LOGICALLY be able to kill a troll in sr3 or sr4 if hanged at 2 cm of its (natural) eye, with the right angle, and if the skull doesn't stop the bullet before it damage the brain.
3 I am very happy they stopped using that variable tn mess-around !
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| And not having armor should be crippling in a primarily firearm-based system... It certainly makes more sense than getting hit a lot more, but taking less damage from each blow, which is what SR4 does. |
While this point is true (at least from what Ive seen while testing it with my group), I just figured it as my armor is finally taking some brunt of the damage
I didn't see any rules in the BBB about armor upkeep so I was just gonna houserule some until the proper book comes out to give me better rules.
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| I play a character with a Body of 9 in SR3, and I've been in many situations where I was able to stage down D damage to nothing when a Body 4-5 character with comparable armor would have been hosed. *shrug* And not having armor should be crippling in a primarily firearm-based system... It certainly makes more sense than getting hit a lot more, but taking less damage from each blow, which is what SR4 does. |
Armor was handled much better in sr4 than in sr3. It helps you take the damage, but you still always run the risk of taking damage.
With your body 9 guy in sr3 with 7 points of armor. You'll never have to wory about something like a 9M wound. And even a 9D wound you'll almost always shrug off without a scratch.
| QUOTE (Superbum) |
| On average an elven adept rolling 20 dice on an attack with any reasonable weapon against a troll who is rolling 4 dice for reaction and then 18 dice for soak is NOT going to one hit kill them. Sure it can happen, but not on average. I am horrible at math and I at least know its true. |
Look out Superbum, don't believe everything you think.
Let's first look at the damage potential of someone rolling 20 dice:
First, you're going to hit. You're rolling 20 dice and they aren't. So you call a shot at as vulnerable part of the body. This means that you are only rolling 16 dice and the DV of your weapon is increased by 4.
Then you roll your attack roll, and get 5 successes. If you want, you can spend an Edge and get 4 more successes, but let's go with 5.
So you take the base DV and AP of the weapon, and add nine to the DV. Then the Troll gets their various resistance rolls:
First, assuming that we aren't doing a hold-out ambush, the Troll gets to roll their 4 dice for reaction. This negates a hit and reduces the DV accordingly. Secondly, the Troll rolls their 9 Body dice and 9 Armor dice and gets 6 hits. Total damage reduction: 7 DV.
So you are looking at doing an extra two DV from your weapon straight out of the gate. If your weapon is, say, a burst from a Mossberg CMDT (11P to start), that's 13 wound levels and a one-shot takedown.
Yeah, SR4 is really lethal. It's not as lethal when people whip out automatic weaponry as SR3 was, but it is really lethal.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| ...SR4 abandoned the concept of proportional damage in favor of White Wolf's wound system. I think that's a shame. |
Uhmm...it would be a shame...if it were true. In fact SR4 has almost nothing in common with White Wolf's nWoD wound system.
Here's how it works in nWoD:
- Character has a number of boxes of health equal to Size + Stamina. For the average person that is 7 boxes.
- There is only one health track (not one for physical, one for stun).
- Damage is categorized in three types: bashing, lethal, aggravated. Each type of damage is marked differently on the health track: bashing = /, lethal = X, aggravated = *
- Damage is marked starting in the left most box and then as damage comes in the lowest level type of damage is pushed right along the track. Once your last health box is filled in, damage carries back over to the first health box and upgrades: bashing -> lethal, lethal -> aggravated.
- Each type of damage takes a different amount of time to heal (it is all physical essentually).
- Characters do not get dice penalties until they reach their third to last health box, at which point they have a -1 penalty, that penalty increases to -2 at your second to last health box, and to -3 on your last health box.
- Whether your character is unconscious, bleeding to death, or dead depends on the type of damage in your last health box; bashing, lethal, or aggravated respectively.
Now....how is it that SR4 has abandoned a concept for White Wolf's wound system??
Any weapon can kill a helpless opponent. Just catch the fragging troll while he's asleep. Surprise, while not as scary as it was in SR3, is still useful and denies that hulker his (small) reaction pool to resist damage.
Combat in Shadowrun is not supposed to be done on equal terms really, either the PCs sneak up on their enemy, avoid them altogether, are ambushed by their enemy, or blunder into each other (for those green runners out there) so giving examples of "equal opponents" is kinda moot.
Edit: No runner with any kinda brains and no security force worth its pay, is going to walk right up to each other and say "Hey, wanna fight?" or the equivalent thereof.
I might add that many tough animals... like elephants (who probably have about the same body as a cracked out troll) are very very hard to kill with hold out pistols... theres a reason many british hunters of old had these big ol' things called elephant guns.
Trolls are meant to be extremely tough bastards to kill. Trol r scaree. Its also easy to track down that big honking bastard that broke your friend in half, and ensure his brains end up on the outer walls of some stuffer shack when he's not paying attention. Just look for the thing with the horns that towers about a meter above everyone else. Or look for the huge tracks.
Combat in Shadowrun is not supposed to be done on equal terms really, either the PCs sneak up on their enemy, avoid them altogether, are ambushed by their enemy, or blunder into each other (for those green runners out there) so giving examples of "equal opponents" is kinda moot.
Edit: No runner with any kinda brains and no security force worth its pay, is going to walk right up to each other and say "Hey, wanna fight?" or the equivalent thereof.
I might add that many tough animals... like elephants (who probably have about the same body as a cracked out troll) are very very hard to kill with hold out pistols... theres a reason many british hunters of old had these big ol' things called elephant guns.
Trolls are meant to be extremely tough bastards to kill. Trol r scaree. Its also easy to track down that big honking bastard that broke your friend in half, and ensure his brains end up on the outer walls of some stuffer shack when he's not paying attention. Just look for the thing with the horns that towers about a meter above everyone else. Or look for the huge tracks.
Now, now, Frank. I am sorry I didn't state the weapon used. My retort was based off your assinine idea of dropping a troll on average with an elven adept using a hold-out pistol.
| QUOTE (Superbum) |
| Now, now, Frank. I am sorry I didn't state the weapon used. My retort was based off your assinine idea of dropping a troll on average with an elven adept using a hold-out pistol. |
How is it asinine? When performing a holdout atack it's just like the mossberg burst except:
1. The base damage is lower (6P instead of 11P, a 5 DV reduction)
2. You can make a palming test to negate your opponent's Reaction (a 1 DV bonus)
So you're 4 DV in the hole from an attack that we've already established on average is a one shot takedown. And if you spend an edge you get... an average of 4 DV.
Ta-daa!
-Frank
Have you even played the game? Because I have run several test runs now since the pdf came out and from what I have seen ON AVERAGE a player takes 3 boxes of dmg. This is during very stragetic fights where everyone is using cover, defense, and other options to help them win a fight. (which is realistic). Sure, there are instances where someone was totally owned and died in one shot but it was NOT ON AVERAGE.
Your example is that ON AVERAGE a player can kill anyone in 1 hit regardless of weapon, standing still, without spending edge.
This tells me:
1) You havn't played the game yet.
2) You have played the game but every time you were in a gun fight you shot someone in the back. (which indeed your example would be correct)
or
3) You have played the game and you and your other players have fights where everyone is standing still firing at each other.
I am not saying that you can't kill someone in one shot. I am simply trying to say that it doesn't happen as often as you think. From what I have SEEN, this game is just as lethal as SR3 is.
Your example is that ON AVERAGE a player can kill anyone in 1 hit regardless of weapon, standing still, without spending edge.
This tells me:
1) You havn't played the game yet.
2) You have played the game but every time you were in a gun fight you shot someone in the back. (which indeed your example would be correct)
or
3) You have played the game and you and your other players have fights where everyone is standing still firing at each other.
I am not saying that you can't kill someone in one shot. I am simply trying to say that it doesn't happen as often as you think. From what I have SEEN, this game is just as lethal as SR3 is.
**sighs** Here we go again. 
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 15 2005, 04:25 PM) |
| Armor was handled much better in sr4 than in sr3. It helps you take the damage, but you still always run the risk of taking damage. With your body 9 guy in sr3 with 7 points of armor. You'll never have to wory about something like a 9M wound. And even a 9D wound you'll almost always shrug off without a scratch. |
Better, how?
Better from a game balance point of view? That depends on too many other variables to have a simple answer.
Better in terms of the feel it creates? I'd disagree, constantly getting wounded (but not too badly) - which is what SR4 seems to be going for - seems very contrived to me, but that's subjective.
Better in terms of realism? Definitely not, since real life armor actually does tend to be pretty binary - you're either very slightly impaired, if at all, or you're basically just as fucked as if you didn't have any armor on.
As for my "body 9 guy", that's a silly assumption that ignores things like Ex ammo, burst fire, attacks that are affected by impact armor, toxins... The "right" way to play SR3 is to not get shot in the first place - the armor and high body are just there as insurance for when your tactics or your luck fail.
| QUOTE (Xenith) |
| **sighs** Here we go again. |
Yeah. I move that the next time someone attempts to contradict an argument based on stastical probabilities with an anecdote that they be shipped to Sudan.
-Frank
| QUOTE (mmu1) |
| The "right" way to play SR3 is to not get shot in the first place - the armor and high body are just there as insurance for when your tactics or your luck fail. |
Thumbs up, Gold Star.
| QUOTE (Superbum) |
| Have you even played the game? |
Sure he has. He's play the game RIGHT NOW. The game of neglecting Edge for the defender combined with using the twink-magnet rule Called Shot (that itself should be one-shot-killed).
P.S. Yes, he has a tendancy to say assinine things that break down upon close examination. But that's what we love about him.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) | ||
Yeah. I move that the next time someone attempts to contradict an argument based on stastical probabilities with an anecdote that they be shipped to Sudan. -Frank |
I move that we ammend the motion to include that you be given the job of escorting them.
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| A integral armor (like 8/6) does almost nothing against a ares predator in sr3 - since the wearer Has one in body (who would dare saying it is a well designed rule ?). |
A lot much more better for that.
Might be having 1 in body is not the proper way to play either sr3 or 4 ?!
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
Better, how? Better from a game balance point of view? That depends on too many other variables to have a simple answer. Better in terms of the feel it creates? I'd disagree, constantly getting wounded (but not too badly) - which is what SR4 seems to be going for - seems very contrived to me, but that's subjective. Better in terms of realism? Definitely not, since real life armor actually does tend to be pretty binary - you're either very slightly impaired, if at all, or you're basically just as fucked as if you didn't have any armor on. As for my "body 9 guy", that's a silly assumption that ignores things like Ex ammo, burst fire, attacks that are affected by impact armor, toxins... The "right" way to play SR3 is to not get shot in the first place - the armor and high body are just there as insurance for when your tactics or your luck fail. |
Here's why I feel its 'Better'.
Its better in the feel it creates. Armor no longer completely absorbs the power of a bullet. It helps absorb the damage.
Its better in terms of realism too. Looking at the example I showed. The sheer amount of dice is what caused the damage, as well as the called shot. In general the troll there under 'normal' combat conditions would probably not have felt alot even from a 6p ap -2 shot. due to the modifiers to the attackers pool and such. And converting the damage to stun is to me more realistic dut to the fact of well physics. Force has to go somewhere, and its going to be into you. Weather or not it pierces the armor and makes you bleed is another matter but you're definately going to feel something. Be it like a punch in the shoulder, or in the case of something like a PAC or a sr a snap kick to the gut. But you will feel something.
I wish they had put in more about armor degredation?
| QUOTE (Taki @ Sep 15 2005, 03:17 PM) |
| 1 A integral armor (like 8/6) does almost nothing against a ares predator in sr3 - since the wearer Has one in body (who would dare saying it is a well designed rule ?). |
Since no one else dares, I dare. Body 1 represents a profoundly crippled individual. Compare to suiting up a barely-coherent 95-year-old or a one-year-old with an armored jacket and firing the gun at them. Unless the armor coverage is total and entirely hard (hardened armor, for instance), they're not going to be coming out of it well.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| SR3 damage had serious problems. Mostly this had to do with autofire, which moved TNs around. |
Expand on this? The only interpretation I can come up with makes it completely and utterly wrong, so maybe I'm missing something.
| QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet) |
| And converting the damage to stun is to me more realistic dut to the fact of well physics. Force has to go somewhere, and its going to be into you. |
Would you please actually look at the physics involved and the comparatively tiny amount of momentum a bullet has? I believe the comparison that's been posted by people who have been shot with armor on is to a stiff poke in the ribs with the blunt end of a pencil. That doesn't sound much like stun damage.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Would you please actually look at the physics involved and the comparatively tiny amount of momentum a bullet has? I believe the comparison that's been posted by people who have been shot with armor on is to a stiff poke in the ribs with the blunt end of a pencil. That doesn't sound much like stun damage. ~J |
Ofcourse that depends on where they get hit. Not every shot in shadowrun ends up hitting the optimal spot of the armor. Most damage that'll be converted to stun is things like pistol rounds. And most people should be able to resist them with a decent body and armor. I bet if you take a narrow burst to the chest with a armored vest you're definately going to feel it and its probably not going to be just a poke in the ribs with a pencil.
I've heard the same reports Kagetenshi, I've also hear reports of broken ribs, and it not being pleasent. All depends on the size of the round, where it hit, and how much armor they were wearing.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Expand on this? The only interpretation I can come up with makes it completely and utterly wrong, so maybe I'm missing something. |
No problem. SR3 had the "full-auto-instant death rule". It wasn't called that, it was just the effect.
Imagine for example that you were in possession of a fully-automatic weapn that inflicted base light damage - there were several, but let's get the example specific by using the Supermach 100. That's 6L damage, and it fires up to 1 rounds per combat phase in full auto. That's pretty ridiculous, so let's fire a lot less than that given the constraints of recoil (3 integral, 4 gas vents, 2 strength, we can fire 10 bullets without freaking out).
So, we send 10 bullets towards some fool we don't like. Now, life gets extremely binary. Let's consider what an armored jacket would do to one bullet. Well, it drops the power down to 1, so the target needs to resist a 1L, the only way we are even going to do any damage is if they darn near botch. But instead, we are firing 10 bullets, which raises the damage code to 17D, which means that they are rolling their body against a TN of 11 - something that only 1 die out of every 18 is likely to do. So with 5 points of armor, you are statistically likely to get away with a serious wound - if you you have a Body of 36.
That's what I mean about serious problems. 1 Bullet - statistically unlikely to do you any damage; 10 bullets - statistically unlikely to not drop you instantaneously. And that's really whoever you are. Remember, hardened armor completely negates the attack if it reduces a single bullet to power zero. And if the hardened armor doesn't reduce it to zero, then it reduces it to 1 or more - and 10 bullets is going to instant-kill you even if you have the body of a juggernaut. In fact, the Juggernaut only has 8 points of Hardened Armor. That Supermach will blow it away in one 10 shot burst if it's firing APDS. Every time.
And that's before we start using weapons outside the submachine gun class to express our hatred of all who live. You could pull a 10 shot autofire burst out of an 8M Assault Rifle if that's what you wanted to do - stage it right up past Deadly on autofire alone, which in turn would jack the power level even higher. The most supposedly invincible creatures in the game simply required you to unload 1/3 of our clip into them to turn into extra chunky. And heck, actual heavy weapons also existed, which were just like that except that they did extremely lethal amounts of damage with each shot - it wasn't just that big weapons turn humans into smoking boots in the road (that doesn't bother me at all), it's that the game couldn't support creatures or machines tough enough that a biggish man-portable weapon wouldn't turn them into smoking boots in the road.
-Frank
I'll address the rest when I have time, but I consider the only hole in that spectrum to be the 6L base range—from there up I consider it not only reasonable but the desirable result. Also, you're mixing your rulesets—extra staging past D doesn't raise the power on ranged, that's only for melee.
As for the support issue, I'll consider that but I need to run now.
Edit: creating a defense is proving more difficult than I had initially surmised, though I still believe the case against SR3 autofire is overstated. I'll try to get everything put together soon.
~J
As for the support issue, I'll consider that but I need to run now.
Edit: creating a defense is proving more difficult than I had initially surmised, though I still believe the case against SR3 autofire is overstated. I'll try to get everything put together soon.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Also, you're mixing your rulesets—extra staging past D doesn't raise the power on ranged, that's only for melee. |
Ya though that was a pretty common house rule, or more often 'house misremembering/misreading of the rules' would be the better way to put it.
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