There's two schools of thought. Based on the budgeting from earlier in the thread, light milspec could conceivably be issued to frontline troops and still be within our average budget, with the heavier armors being issued on a 'per mission' basis.

Or, there's the camo suit as standard issue, and all milspecs issued on 'per mission' basis.

I disagree on that one. (Slightly)

Since the milspec armor is fitted to one wearer, i would say: once somebody has had the honor to be measured for one, he will be wearing it always (Well, not at home or on standby of course... but on every mission where it is possible)

But overall: i am in the "Specialists only" group. The normal dudes (which aren't expensive enough) can have Camo suit, Flak Jacket or something.

Ah... and also: Isn't it allowed at the moment (reality) to wear self-aquired armor in the field? For example the us-guys in iraq and after that in Afghanistan... didn't some of those guys bought themselves a Dragonskin armor, and others had some additional armor sent from some organisation back home?

So i think it may be possible for career-soldiers that they might buy themselves a FFBA and PPP units (as much as they can carry) or even to get themselves a milspec? (I guess that one might take a bit of paperwork though).

It was up until '06 or so, then the Pentagon banned the use of non-issue armor. It was their concern that the troops were getting inferior sets - the politicking and controversy surrounding Dragon Skin still hasn't gone away.

The guys who bought themselves Dragonskin armor were told they could not wear it. A few were court martialed for insubordination for wearing them anyways. It was a /huge/ stink in early 2002/2003.

Not sure what came of it after that. There was a lot of public uproar about not allowing soldiers to spend their own money on getting better armor than what the US Army provided.

I am a little new to the Shadowrun Universe. What exactly is the role of the UCAS Military? What sort of missions are they called upon to preform?

Also, with current trends in drone useage, maybe the standard infantryman is actually a rigger? A Steel Lynx is only 5,000ny and couldn't you follow behind them in a tank with signal boosters to prevent jamming.

The stink comes from the classification process. Dragon Skin claimed its base set was Class III approved before it actually was, and stuff just went downhill from there. DoD claims that they don't want soldiers using what they view as inferior armor sets. Their certification for III/IV got pulled, and they've been fighting to get it back ever since. There's been claims of favoritism, fixing the trials - everything under the sun.

@squee: The UCAS military (or any national military) is primarily used as a defensive measure - border patrols, high-profile situations such as the Arcology Shutdown, and the like. Their role is to fuck you up if you step too far over the line. Remember - in GTA, the army is the six-star response. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Look, if UCAS isn't using Military Grade Armor.. who the fuck is?

I think the consensus (to the extent the consensus is possible, or even desirable) is that the UCAS Military certainly uses Milspec Armor, but it's not issued to every soldier, or even every infantry soldier.

That said, I probably wouldn't have every soldier outfitted in Milspec armor, if only because I wouldn't want to run a series of games where the runners were trying to kidnap MP's from Ft. Lewis.

I'm kinda proponent of the "spec forces use milspec, grunts don't" especially given this little food for thought.

Training troops is time consuming and expensive.

Milspec armor starts at 12k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and goes upwards from there.

Skillwires on the other hand are 2k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) x rating.

Wouldn't it be faster/more affordable/more effective to churn out a bunch of skillwired troops with camo suits? Save the really good hardware for those who you want to actually preserve.

Except that the UCAS Military is going to be even smaller with less non-combat personnel.
Grunts use milspec armor /today/

You guys are still thinking of WWII and Vietnam Era US Army that was fielded mostly by Draftees.
Today's Army is all volunteer, though some are more volunteer than others. It's a smaller army with better training and equipment. it's not a bunch of guys in Juarez with Uzi's.

Yeah, I can't remember seeing many recent pictures of forward troops that DIDN'T have on as much body armor as was practical to wear day-to-day.



-k

My thought on this (4E) for UCAS:

Rear Echlon troops: Armor Jacket, Military Helmet, and either a Colt M23 with smartlink, Colt Cobra SMG with smartlink, APIV (4 clips-normal ammo). Helmet has ultrasound, low light, thermo, smartlink, commlink, vision magnification 3. He also has a knife, and probably a couple of doses of Jazz (if not issued, he'll pick some up elsewhere).

Standard Rifleman: Light Military grade armor with helmet (same load out as above), Colt M22A2 (8 clips APDS, 200 rds loose, and 24 HE mini grenades and 6 smoke), 4 fragmentation grenades, 2 IR smoke, knife. Cyber includes wired reflexes of 1.

Other gear will vary depending upon duty station and MOS.

See
I'm not sure I agree about wired Reflexes I.

I think that /probably/ to get wired reflexes I, you have to survive your first enlistment, and re-enlist.
I think you hit Corporal before you get WRI.

Though I could see gunny's and Master chiefs having WRII

I agree. I floated the idea previously in one of these topics that if the US Army is offering 20k as a reenlistment bonus, then the UCAS army could probably throw Wired I in as well. (Also with the assumption that soldiers with that type of ware who were transitioning into law enforcement or corp sec could get the permits transferred as well.)

Frag your gun truck. Too much likelihood of getting tagged by an EFP or deep-buried and flipping over, it flipping over while you cross some crappy local national bridge or someone tossing in a grenade. I've personally driven one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Caiman_%2...ored_vehicle%29 and one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RG-33 (long and short variant) in combat patrols and much prefer the RG-33 short over the Caiman because it has better area coverage and better off-roading capability. I can't wait to try out one of these though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-ATV .

The standard loadout for my brigade is a minimum of 7 - 30 round magazines (not clips ... fraggin developers) or 4 - 200 round canisters for the SAW.

I can see the UCAS army issuing out light milspec armor to everyone. They got your ass for at least 3 years (minimum) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And although it's a volunteer force, I'm pretty sure they only accept those individuals who meet certain physical builds and requirements. A few years ago the Army was taking "bodies", no matter what they were like. Now, they're going back to getting rid of anyone who's broke or incompetent. I just had to inform my soldiers that they can now be demoted and/or chaptered out if they fail a PT test make-up. Fun stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

According to my understanding of the fluff (or maybe just my opinion) runners should be scared shitless by things like FBI Swat, UCAS Special Ops, and elite Red Samurai. Because these enemies have the same power level as the runner and probably better tactics, numbers, and logistical support.

I think special ops use it, assault troops (like the Rangers or Marines) for high-threat combat missions, but for the most part I imagine it's too expensive and uncomfortable for it to be practical to issue to standard grunts by default.

The Japanese Imperial Army.
Remember, most State Nations are broke and/or have little influence. Japan with THREE Japanacorps is the new super power.

Edit: make it 4. I forgot Evo's headquarter is in Russia, but Buttercup is the major owner.

Also mercenary and some corp forces would be using milspec. I still stand by my list.

That's fair, Neurosis. My assumption is that runners and special ops are probably pretty comparable in terms of dice pools, but the fluff considerations go beyond the dice pools. (By the same token, one of the most challenging things for a runner team to go up against is another runner team.)

I would put in that a spec-ops team would have runner-level DPs, but far exceed runner-level breadth of skills.

Also consider just how damn many runners have a written backstory of being ex-SpecOps.



-k

Yeah, except they're all bullshit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So lame. If those runners actually have skills and attributes at the appropriate level in all the appropriate skills, I apologize to their players. Otherwise… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

My last character's backstory was *wannabe* Spec-Ops. Well, not even: more like a military-buff geek, who plays the 2070 version of Modern Warfare too much. Hehe.

The Internal Gear Post ... Here Goes.

From the 4E fluff, Cyberware is so ubiquitous and common as to have become passe. Of course, in general, once the US Army makes anything standard issue it takes years and years of tests and trials and bidding to come up with a replacement for it, so I wouldn't be surprised if some cyberware (not bioware) was still standard issue for grunts just out of bootcamp.

* Datajack (Seems essential for accessing things like Linguasofts and Mapsofts which would massively increase the effectiveness of the modern warrior.)
* Eyeware: None. Most of the enhancements fit into goggles, and asking soldiers to give up their natural eyes is giving up a lot.
* Earware: Ditto, see above.
* Bone Lacing. Relatively cheap, and not THAT innately dangerous for discharged soldiers to be packing. Would probably be removed only from soldiers who were dishonorably discharged. I see it is part of the incentive package, in addition to things like paying for college. Kevlar is best because it doesn't let you punch for physical.
* Dermal Plating: See above. Rating 2 is probably standard.
* Reaction enhancing 'ware: Definitely not. Too essence intensive, too expensive, and too dangerous to leave in discharged soldiers. Maybe some Wired Reflexes for grunts who re-up for a second tour, as someone said.
* Cyberlimbs: No, for all of the reasons discussed above. This is definitely not going to be standard issue...except for soldiers who have lost limbs in the course of duty.
* Skillwires: For specialists only. So not quite 'standard issue', and a 'no' for our purposes.

So your typical grunt may be carrying something like:

* Datajack
* Kevlar Bone Lacing
* Dermal Plating 2

For a total cost of 20,500 and 2.1 Essence.

I'll discuss the possibility of including other types of 'ware in later posts.

I would agree with that. I can't stand having a character that doesn't have their story and stats match up - last "merc" character I played spent most of his BP on skills for that reason. And I made him an old man with asthma and creaky Desert Wars era cyberware. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Doesn't stop tons of folks from still putting in that spec-ops background, though. And typically aged in their 20s or something, somehow.



-k