Magic doesn't work like that.

~J

If I remember right, some Horrors need little more than you reading their name to be able to mark you. Mark one geek, then his buddies from the computer club, then it's spamfest time.... Nasty.

At least one horror has demosntrated an ability to control and alter machinery - at least medieval/renaissance level. With plenty of drones and machines around, it can get really nasty really fast. Especially if it can safely lurk in the astral while messing with things on the material plane.

More that the traits of the virus seem like something the Horrors would use - or a step toward Verjigorm's great vision for the world.

Huh. "Orks would become savage", well, canon Wendigo have generally been portrayed with some degree of refinement but I could see how one could consider the whole "engaging in cannibalistic feasts" thing to qualify.

Interesting. I'd always thought that he was simply obsessed with Dragons, thanks for pointing out otherwise.

~J

Someone mentioned that ED versions of ghouls and vampires are not the same as those in SR. What are the diffrences? I ask this because I have always thought SR vampires were a little on the weak side which would make sense if they were not the real thing. This plays intto my argument that the Horrors would defeat humanity or force them to hide in fear (again) by turning our own against us.

Huh? SR vampires are devastating, what with the Enhanced Physical Attributes giving them +Essence to all of their Physical attributes, with an Essence max of 12. A typical vampire (7 Essence) will have effective Body 10, Quickness 12 with x5 running multiplier, Strength 10, and Reaction 8+2d6 (and remember, they use Reaction to attack) and have the ability to use weapons. At maximum (that is, after one feeding) you're looking at Body 15, Quickness 17, Strength 15 and Reaction 10+2d6, so 10 dice base on attacks.


I can't find any proper writeup of vampires in ED, but the text is clear that both of them are in fact undead, in contrast to living but virally modified beings. Ghouls in ED do not have the ability to create more Ghouls, being instead Horror-created; they have a magical toxin, but this simply deals damage (it doesn't even Ghoulify victims it kills). It also deactivates on the death of the Ghoul instead of having a completely separate existence like HMHVV. They do have what looks to be a comparable weakness to sunlight. They do not appear to have any power of Astral Sight or dual nature.

That's what I have.

~J

Kagetenshi,
4th ed SR nerfed that. The Vampires can take essence they have drained and feed it into an attribute for a bonus that lasts a couple turns. The 3rd ed vampires are what you are describing. That is unless someone changed them back when I was not looking.

Those weren't puzzles per se - they were desinged to draw the attention of Horrors and lure them into the 'puzzle', which caused them to lose their 'concentration', and be forced to leave Earth. They obviously needed to put some effort into staying, but that was a big amount of their mental capacity only in the case of lesser Horrors. For example, Wormskulls breched many Kaers, because of their cleverness and patience...


And in some cases, kaer resident magicians used their flawed techniques without knowledge of consequences, creating a link for the Horrors, or even tried to 'sneak a peek' on what's happening outside (via Astral Projection, which is pretty much suicidal in ED, due to the corruption of Astral Space and Horrors residing in it).
And a Horror can use his abilities on the Marked one, even if he runs away. Range is a factor, but being 1000 km away simply doesn't let the Horror use damaging powers on you - anything else is still working, so he can easily drive you crazy, and work from there.


Horrors don't need physical form. And then can use a Marked or Possesed (yes, some of them can do that too) human with a commlink, or better, datajack. There are ways for Horrors to use a Marked person's skills and knowledge, or turn him into an obedient abomination (Horror Construct)... As i wrote - some of the Horrors could use the 'trix as just another means of getting their wictims. What exists in the Matrix by the year 2072 is enough do drive people insine, or kill them dead. Who says Horrors won't use that? They're smart in a alien, insidious and evil way. They figured how to work against powerfull magic wards and traps, they'll learn how to surf the Matrix too. Who says they can't coerce a doc into implanting them a commlink and datajack?


1. Don't worry. In a hundred years tops elves start sprouting thorns all over the world. If some of the IE and their allies don't find a way to avert the Ritual of Thorns magic, that is.

2. No, there aren't. Probably. As there probably aren't any other kind. Yet. The few attempts of invasion were supposedly thwarted.

3. Ghouls are different in being true undead. Dead and raised as walking corpses with apetite for flesh and nasty poison. And their minds are mostly degenerated to the level of cunning critters with understanding of the world on metahuman level - a bit like some feral ghouls from ED.

4. There was mention of a Horror trying to get in, and he worked just like the Usurper. Check the threads on the official forums. And there supposedly was another attempt like that somwhere in the arctic...
I would seriously bet on it, since Yrsgranthe appeared already, and he's just a bit more powerfull (but doesn't have that much in the way of smarts and manipulation).
And HMHVV could be a leftover from the last Scourge, a memetic form of Corruption given form. And there are no vampires of any kind in ED, only Horrors, undead, spirits, and all kinds of abominations that work in a similar way.

5. Oh, Big V doesn't need that. He was powerfull enough to stay there during the downcycle before the Age of Legends. He is something more than just a badass Horror... So there might be some truth in the draconic creation myth (in which all comes from V, including dragons).

6. It does, if you take ED magic theory into account. Blood Magic (the 'not-evil' kind) and Disciplines both hold their power through use. In the former case, Namegivers (Metahumans) believing in their power and using them reinforced the True Pattern of Blood Magic enough for it to work. In the case of Disciplines, when many, many Adepts followed the same way, it was formed into a Pattern. That's why in 1st edition of Earthdawn some Disciplines didn't have higher circles - their pattern wasn't strong enough. So, yes. As even in SR Will is fundamental for magic, and believing in something is involved too (like traditions - they're the new Disciplines).

7. Current SR Orks are as 'savage' as their ED versions. So, no worries here.



You mean Nebis? Yeah, but that wasn't a true mark - only a kind of symapthethic Nebislink to the careless NebisvictimNebis. And itNebis wasntNebis even NebisNebis his Nebis True NebisNebis NameNebisNebisNebisNebis...

Couldn't resist.

Anyway, about Technomancers and Magic. From Emergence I got the impression it wasn't really a magical phenomenon, more a bizarre kind of psychosomatic adaptation to a wireless society.

The similarity in game mechanics was probably intended to make the game mechanics easier, by recycling the magic mechanics. Also, to make it easier to run matrix, physical and astral combats at the same time. It doesn't have to mean technomancers are magical.

That is the best argument I have ever seen. There is nothing, with the matrix, metahumanity can do against the horrors.
Imagine that in SPAM.

That would have been fine.. if they'd not included Sprites, and Deep Resonance Realms.

Or Echos

and threading of software in your brain? REALLY?

Or modifying your nervous system so you can move faster
or take a skillsoft and convert it into a "brain program'"

Huh, didn't know that. Must admit I mostly just wasn't able to resist jabbing at the fact that once again someone forgot the edition tag on the thread.


They may not be statted out anywhere, but they're explicitly mentioned as a kind of "true undead" in contrast to Demiwraiths in the core book. Their existence is thus implied.

~J

In 1at ed, maybe. There were even in some mechanical examples in the companion. But that was rubbish - there were no rules for them. And so they were probably scrapped, because of WoD Vampire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

None of that requires magic. It could be magic, but it doesn't have to be.

Some of the echoes are a bit wonky, I'll admit that. But part of the premise of technomancers is that the brain can alter/reprogram the body, particularly the nervous system.

The Deep Resonance doesn't have to be magical; it can be an emergent phenomenon that occurs from the intended interactions between various matrix-organization algorithms. It's literally an emergent phenomenon. This is pretty much a staple of cyberpunk; it doesn't have to involve magic. See also Dark Internet and Deep Web.

Sprites may be either completely created by the technomancer himself, as a highly-advanced semi-intelligent complex form, or somehow invoked from the Deep Resonance. It doesn't have to magical; it's code, just weird code.

Emulating skillsofts - that's a logical extension of being able to reprogram your nervous system and being able to use complex forms. You translate a controller program for one set of hardware (skillwires) to another set of hardware (nervous system).

The complex forms are the other core premise: that the brain can compose functional machine code directly. That's a tough premise, but this is a sci-fi game too.

What is somewhat lacking is a difference between the ability to use complex forms, and the ability to emit Signal. But I don't think there's any real proof that technomancy is magical.

Isn't the whole thorn thing called chronic osteocuspis in Year of the Commet?

Maybe. I didn't read that one yet. And if it causes thorns to grow from an elf's bones, and cause him neverending, excruciating pain that dampens all of his emotions, then yes.

For those looking to find Vampires in Earthdawn, look in the second edition book Barsaive in Chaos p108.

Most ED players loathe 2nd edition but there are a few gems in that cesspool, you just gotta dig deep.

And given that corps and everybody else pulled all the stops with regard to TM research, I'd dare to claim that somebody got the smart idea to use a Glo-Wand over have a mage check for astral signatures. If Resonance was just another form of magic, (in-universe) people would have figured out long ago.

It's pointedly similar, but I'm not sure it's the same.


Not just elves; it's a variety of SURGE that causes "razor-sharp bony deposits [to] erupt from the skeletal structure and puncture through the skin". There's a horribly painful acclimation period, after which the character "become[s] accustomed to living with pain" and gains the equivalent of Pain Resistance 3. The spikes grow back if removed. Emotional effects are not explicitly described.

~J

So.. here's what I suspect happened.

1) Blood Elves enact said ritual.
2) Mana levels go up and then down and down some more
3) Blood Elves start having children that are humans. (but carry the 'elven' dna markings)
4) Mana comes back, people with sufficient elven 'dna' start having elven children
5) because of cross breeding during the 5th age, some people have blood wood elven DNA. Not enough to be born Elven, but enough to have the Ritual Of Thorns being triggered on them.

So when the mana level gets high enough why would elves around the world suddenly have thorns? I know what they did in the Blood Woods in ED but why would it pop up again without the ritual?

If it is following blood lines or some such thing would you not also end up with humans, dwarves, orcs and even trolls with thorns? Several thousand years of breeding is gonna spread that problem all over the place.

Answers got posted while I was typeing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Still wanna know how the ritual would still have an affect now though.

Actually only the IE's might have to deal with this. Newborns in the Blood Wood had to be subjected to the ritual. The only ones spontaneously sprouting thorns might be Alachia, Aithne, and the rest of the old Blood Wood crew.



Which is exactly what I said, so I find your comment somewhat confusing.

Bonecrown or at least a horror matching his description was defeated by Ryan Mercury, who I submit is the cheapest way to defeat the horrors. All you have to do is have brown nipples say the word.

As for horrors on the matrix I imagine something like the crash virus.

I cant believe BoneCrown went down that easy

I realize everything about Technomancers is only speculation, but it seems that resonance is a different flavour of magic. Like it's out of phase with the other magic properties. I'd like to bring up the point about Assensing technomancers. It is possible to figure out they are technomancer from assensing, but it requires 5 hits on an assensing test. That isn't exactly reliable, as bioware is more noticable.

I would also like to mention Protosapients. Instinct driven code that isn't exactly common, but not exactly unheard of. Are they code that has coalesced and awakened from the awakened nature of the world? By all accounts, their is no reason for their existance. At least publicly, all corps display no knowledge of the creatures, even in secret files (though maybe not the most secret of files), except acknowledging they might exist. It is my belief they are like some of the awakened animals that have no (current) real world analogy.

If these creatures, and maybe even resonance, have been around for a long time, but in the 2060's it was just becoming accessable, why shouldn't some form of Horror already exist there, waiting for the resonance to become thicker in human matrix work? (Resonant pools and shallows)