At one in the morning I didn't make it clear I was sort of supporting this point, rather than contradicting it.


Hmmm... I'm not so sure a lead pipe has gone through less manufacturing than a lead bullet. Now, a hunk of unprocessed rock would be less so. Still, then are we to go back to the stone age to find the solution to ItNW? Make stone axes to hit them?

The power doesn't even say 'elements', it says: "(weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers)". If it's not a weapon foci, a spell, or a paranormal power, then no.

Even if it did say 'elements', it's that kind of slippery slope that leads most people to conclude that *no* 'elements' are 'non-normal weapons'. What's more 'manufactured' than a industrial-chemical flamethrower, anyway? That entire area of logic is too messy… and, again, irrelevant.

Need I remind you of the huge difference between a common spruce tabletop and elemental wood telesma?

Need I remind you that Elemental Wood does not exist in Shadowrun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In any campaign I run, I go with this. If the weapon has some sort of AP modifier, I apply that to the ItNW calculation, though. Hey, Yerameyahu. We agree. With hardly any qualifier. Holy shit.

Someone should tell that to the Wuxing Tradition, then. Ditto to the people who wrote the rules for refining and radicals. Oh, and of course, those pesky Plant Spirits.

Apparently people needed reminding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No where does the Wuxing Tradiution refer to either Elemental Elements or True Elements.
No where does the section on Enchanting talk about Elemental Elements or True Elements. (Though I admittedly only scanned quickly)
No where in the Tables does it ever refer to Elemental Elements or True Elements.
AS for teh Plant Spirit. Itr is no more an Elemental Element than a FIre SPirit is. Nor aretehy True Elements, or a piece thereof.

As for Reagents and Radicals; These are what are listed:
Radical REAGENTS
Refined REAGENTS
Raw REAGENTS
Natural Refined REAGENTS
and Natural Radical REAGENTS.

A Reagent does not equal either a True Element nor an Elemental Element. They are NOT the same thing.
Should you choose to equate them as the same thing, then that is on you, and is a House Rule.

So, what are you trying to actually say?

That you're wrong.


Street Magic, p. 43: "Qi has five states of being, represented by the five Chinese elements of Fire, Earth, Wood, Water, and Metal, and it is also influenced by the two poles of passivity and activity, yin and yang."


And you'd be wrong again. It's simply another name for them. (Street Magic, p. 40: "Spirits are seen as incorporeal forces and fae, spiritual embodiments of the true elements of nature.")

I have no idea what you're going on with "true elements," however, as the only reference to such a term is in the quote above, and "elemental element' is even more ridiculous a term. But that's not surprising since nothing else you're saying here makes any sense, either.

Element does not equate to ELEMENTAL or TRUE ELEMENT. AND YOU KNOW IT.

Please get off your high horse and actually participate in this conversation. Thew original Quote That I referenced, and you intruded upon, was a definition of Elemental Wood Telesma. THIS DOES NOT EXIST IN SHADOWRUN. Look it up, you won't find it anywhere in the Shadowrun books. If you choose to include the Earthdawn crap, then yes, you can [possibly] equate them. Fortunately, Earthdawn crap is no longer a part of Shadowrun, regardless of what may or may not be out there from previous editions.

Again. An Element does not equate to Elemental.

See:



And now compare to:



How, exactly are these the same thing now?

You really crack me up Doc... You really, really do.
But no worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nevermind. It's pointless.

Wow. This thread went a bit off rails. I'm sorry inadvertently setup an argument. I had used the Flame Thrower example because I thought it would show a reasonably complicated case. I guess I was more right than I knew.

Back to Free Spirit rules....


So my understanding of the Immunity to Weapons power was wrong. I generally get to use both double my force (hardened) and my worn armor against attacks unless they bypass my Immunity, which just leaves me with the worn armor, which of course follows normal armor rules.

Ok, so I'm making progress here. My Free Spirit character will be reasonably tough to hurt, unless you're using mystical options, in which case he's about as protected as any spellcaster is, armor wise. He's got some nifty flight, and a flaming aura. He'll have decent if not fantastic Sorcery and Close Combat. I'll pickup a decent Astral Combat and some Assenssing. I suppose I should round him out with some Social skill group, dodge, and perception.

If I make sure he can Counterspell, that'll help some. If he's fighting adepts, well he's got troubles, but at least they'll have to reach him (he can fly or go astral) and deal with his flaming aura, which will be annoying.

So my big weakness is going to be Astral attackers. If I get in over my head, I guess I can always flee to my home Metal Mana Plane right? Just hope my team-mates remember to scoop up my jacket after I poof out of existence on the physical.

Also, for what ever reason (let's call it a side effect of being materialized instead of actually physical) I can't read digital screens. No TV, vision enhancing goggles, and no AR. I'm guessing this issue won't extend to Electronic Paper though... so I can still use a commlink, via buttons and voice interface, and use the digital paper as a display. Not exactly grounds for a hacker, but it makes checking an account balance or reading e-mail viable.

Any other tricks or concerns I should look into?

I'm still considering making him a non-spellcaster and focusing more on Close Combat, Assensing, astral combat, and counter spelling as his primary deals. I could also see him making a living as a guy that puts up wards. part of this is my general lack of comfort with the magic rules I must admit. I do have to admit, given the quasi-bruiser I'm sort of making I'm tempted by spells to boost Strength, Agility, and Body.

This post has been edited by BlackJaw: Oct 27 2011, 07:33 PM

Oh man, he's from the Plane of Metal? Rock on! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's because your 'physical' vision is astral vision; you're a dual-natured astral native, like all materialized spirits. There's no reason you should be able to read digital paper, or even *real* paper, actually.

If you're not comfortable with magic, Free Spirit PC is just about the worst possible choice. :o Being a Magician is what they *are*, more or less, but you can choose to be a crappy one.

I know I'm really playing against type and rules here, but I'm really interested in trying to make Fire Spirit that's rather nasty in melee combat, and that otherwise provides Astral Overwatch, Counterspelling, and of course the Teleporting trick.

Tell me if I'm missing something here:

Unarmed combat boosts for Spirits:

• Natrual Weapons isn't well defined, but let's call it Force value bonus on damage.
• Elemental Aura (Fire) gives me another +4 damage, and makes all the damage fire damage which is resisted by half impact. As an extra bonus, enemies attacking me take Force in fire damage as well.
• Engulf (fire) lets me trap a foe struck in melee and wrap him in flames.

So in theory, with a max Force value of 6 and base strength 2, I can be hitting targets for something like 11 Fire (half impact), then wrap them in fire so they are trapped taking that damage over and over until they escape, die, or I stop sustaining the power... and I can just walk fly away while it happens?

I'm starting to think a Free Fire Spirit PC could make an Bruiser.

I still say Engulf is *properly* a power that involves the spirit wrapping the target in itself and 'holding' it. No walking away, etc. I guess it depends on what fluff you want, and how interested you are in 'using' the rules.

Street magic p100 makes it explicitly, unambiguously, and painstakingly clear that you are wrong about that.

Actually I just noticed the post explaining that Elemental Aura is always active, so if you're on the physical, your on fire. It kind of throws off my whole Fire Spirit concept, as I wanted him to pass for a SURGE'd or augmented ork on the street... and not burn places down by just being there.

I'm now re-adjusting my thoughts in a new direction. I picked over the PC Free Spirit power list a bit and decided an Aura Masking, Realistic Form, Accident, & Influence build could make for a fun trickster concept.

Put a real big focus on counterspelling, & assensing. Keep Astral Combat decent. Make him completely uninterested in physical goods. He works for Karma. Might try and swing having him not under the friendship pact but instead takes karma bids to go on missions in lue of cash (or collecting standard karma from the GM.) Get him some other pact instead of friendship as well. It's a character type that could make the best use of that manaplanes short cut and similar whacky abilities.

Do Free Spirits use half their Force in Astral Combat or do they use half Charisma?

Umaro, I'm saying Street Magic is wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought that was clear (if not "explicitly, unambiguously, and painstakingly" so). Hehe.

Element Aura will not burn the place down unles you're attacking the place, or the place is attacking you.

Also, just because you were a fire spirit, that doesn't mean you are a fire spirit after you go free. You likely retain some of your old abilities, but you're not obligated to have them all if you don't want them as a Free Spirit player character.

actually, not sure if people have realized this, but a free spirit pc's power selection is based on their tradition. The specific natural weapon any given spirit has access to is based on those spirit types within that tradition.

I am unsure if beast spirits have a better built in natural weapon than, say, guardian types, or if any other types have it, but yeah. That's how it works.


Regarding Always On Powers: I tend to assume, and I think my game table would agree, spirits and critters generally have control over their own powers and can choose to use them or not.
The biggest mechanical implication of Always On powers, that I'm surprised people haven't picked up on, is that they do NOT need to be Sustained. Critter power sustaining is special, in that it there is an upper limit to how many may be 'on' at any given time. Always on powers have no such limitation.


This is also pretty much completely shot down by Invoking. Great Form spirits (if they rolled high enough) can just kind of look at people and make various elemental effects spring out of nowhere and hold someone down. Engulf explicity becomes LOS:Area, or at least the option to use it as such, which makes it really, really, really good. Especially with the no friendly fire clause.

I know. I'm talking about my opinion of what it should be, which is why I said "*properly*". And Great Forms are Great Forms, their powers should be expected to be different (better). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)