How do you rectify that with the initiation that requires you to impose a deformity on yourself, which results in essence loss?

For a variety of reasons, most importantly you're sacrificing part of yourself for your magic.

You know, I was going to reply with quotes and such, but when I read the actual initiation ordeal dealing with the self-removal of genitalia, my mind ran and hid in a corner, and I think I shall follow it.

PC or not, it's simply not true. In SR4, you lose essence from implanting 'ware, not from losing/being born without limbs.
This is not true, either, even under the Optional-Optional rule. Default, there *is* no essence loss from damage, and the Optional-Optional rule includes no provision for repairing Severe Wound essence loss by healing/reattaching anything.

And again, it's not at all related to the original point: essence-paid implants are supposed to count as 'part of you' for the purposes of magic (cybereyes, limbs, etc.), so it's very weird that Goo works the way it says.

126 of Augmentation says you're wrong. Again.

Becasue imposing that deformity DOES NOT CAUSE ESSENCE LOSS...

Please point out what you are arguing with a Quote. I just read the referenced page, and it does not say what you are saying it says, as far as I can tell. The discussion would go a lot better if you provided Quotes to back up your statements.

The key quote that backs Yerameyahu and the others is:



and...



Neither of these state that Wounds cause Essence Loss by themselves. There is an OPTIONAL Rule that allows that. But it is OPTIONAL.

And it's an Optional variant *of* the Severe Wounds Optional Rule, to boot (Aug p23 or 24, I forget).

not to mention the first bit of the advanced medtech section where this rule is found is... wait for it... OPTIONAL!

Page 23... Here is the entire Quote, so everyone can be on the same page...



As has been stated, these are both OPTIONAL RUles.

Let's examine the books and see, shall we? We begin our search back in the dawn of Shadowrun...

SR1:
So, nothing back in SR1 regarding limb loss causing essence loss.

SR2:
Hmm - nothing in SR2 about essence loss from limb loss. Ah well. Let's move on:

SR3:
So, nothing in SR3 either - on the contrary, actually - maybe we can find proof for your theory in...

SR4A:
So there you have it. Nothing at all supporting your position.


Now, it seems to me that there is no evidence whatsoever that you lose essence from damage, while there is a fair amount of evidence to the contrary - including a direct statement to the fact in SR3.
Well then, almost normal could you please take your own advice and find a single contradictory rule from any book, in any edition -- a rule that mentions essence loss from damage (beside the twice quoted optional addition to the optional rule in Augmentation), essence loss from limb loss, or cloned replacement limbs restoring essence lost from cyberlimbs?

Essence loss of any kind cannot be repaired, except for with the genetic treatment that restores essence (or with Essence Drain, though that's not quite the same)

If you lost a point of essence from a cyberlimb (or from the optional-optional rule when getting a severe damage), replacing that with a grown replacement part won't give you any essence back. If the loss was from cyber, you can fill it with other cyber. If the loss was from something else (drug use, essence drain, optional damage rules) you can't fill it with anything whatsoever.

So, besides the rules you choose to ignore, find rules which you won't? You're funny.

The only rule I told you to 'ignore' is an optional tweak to an optional rule. I'm not sure if you understand what optional means, but it's basically an extra rule that you can use if you wish to have a particularily deadly and gritty game. Even using the optional rule, it is entirely up to the gamemaster how much essence is lost, which doesn't mesh at all with your statement of essence loss from limbs.

But alright, give me any rule, optional or not, from any book, in any edition that states that you lose Essence from limb loss, and that such Essence can be replaced by cloned parts.

Better yet - answer these questions:

My character has Essence 6.
- If I lose a limb in combat and doesn't get a replacement, what Essence am I left with?
- If I lose a limb in combat and replace it with a standard cyberarm (Essence cost 1), what Essence am I left with?

The whole game is optional to play, as it is optional to listen to you. You're treatment of the word optional like it means false is laughable.

Okay, I'll bite.

By the rules, what's the base damage code of a cyberarm?

By the rules, is Medicine a skill or a skill group?

By the rules, what's the Essence cost of a Symbiont?

And yet you still continue to NOT provide any proof of your claims, while others have provided ample proof that you are completely wrong. What should we take away from that?

ill give you 4/10 for this troll post.

That as a child many folks here stuffed their ears and shouted "la-la-la-la". I provide proof. You whine. You claim you've shown proof I'm wrong, while not providing any. It's laughable. I laugh! HA! HAHAHA!

Fish or Cut Bait...
I have yet to see any proof of your claims (the page you referred to did not even talk about what youare talking about). And when pressed to provide said proof, you dismiss the request in taunts and rudeness.

So I say Again... prove it. Others have done well enough to prove you wrong, how about you stand up and attempt to prove your points, rather than laughing at people. Or is that too much to ask of you?

Man, it is so weird being on the outside of one of these arguments. Do all long-running threads end like this?

They failed to provide proof when they showed you, in 4 editions, that no mention of what you claim exists? You showed proof by what? Making an unsubstantiated claim that you have yet to back up? Seriously, AN, provide proof or at least reference the post you claim has the proof you provided.

Dude, SnowRaven posted an edition by edition breakdown detailing how the Shadowrun rules sets all indicate that Essence loss happens only on implantation of 'ware, and not on the loss of body parts, with multiple page references and quotes.

You, on the other hand, just posted a page number, which didn't even have anything on it supporting your position.

Please quote the relevant passage in the standard rules where you lose Essence by getting a limb lopped off. In any edition. Not just a page number, the actual rule.

The idea that you lose essence only when you implant foreign materials or otherwise screw with your aura, and NOT merely when you lose body parts, has been a core staple of the Shadowrun setting since the beginning.

"Optional Rules" has a specific meaning in the Shadowrun game. It's extra rules which are not considered even by the game developers to be part of the standard game, that you can use to change things up a bit. They are clearly labeled as such in the text.

In general rules discussions, the default assumption is and must be the standard rules as written, with no optional, variant, or house rules. This is to establish a common ground for all participants to start from. If an individual wants to include into the discussion such an optional, variant, or house rule, it is beholden on them to clearly specify that they are doing so.

Given your displayed attitude, this is the final post I will make on the subject. You're wrong, have been shown to be wrong with multiple specific rules quotes and citations, and have started the tactic of selectively pretending those quotes were not posted. Good day sir.



-k

These are all your related quotes and claims in this thread:
SR4A pg. 311 'Essence Cost' says that ctýber has an Essence Cost representing the reduction of Essence that occurs when the 'ware is implanted. A 'Cost' strongly implies that you pay for it, and it clearly states it occurs at implantation. So you are wrong there.
Even using the optional rules, it is entirely up to the GM how much Essence you lose for a limb, and installing a cyberlimb would cause an additional essence loss (so if the GM says that you lose 1 point of Essence from losing the limb, you lose one more point of Essence for a standard cyberlimb, making the total loss 2 points. So you are wrong here as well.
What is the page reference of losing Essence from losing a limb? You haven't provided it yet.

SR4A pg. 68 you quote magic loss. Nothing on that page even hints at Essence loss from damage of any kind.
SR4A pg. 207 doesn't say that you lose Essence from damage. It says that Low-Essence characters are more difficult to heal because implants or other damage disrupt the body's holistic integrity. Could it be it's talking about essence loss from drug use, maybe? Remember, the Augmentation optional rule of essence loss from damage wasn't invented yet when this was written, and no other edition had essence loss from anything but implantation or drug-use.

There's not a single mention in any edition of essence loss from damage being repaired by reattachment of a limb. Essence holes from removed implants may be filled with other implants. Cloned replacement limbs doesn't have an essence cost, so you are left with the same size essence hole you had before. If the essence loss was from damage, the only way to 'fill' it is by genetic rejuvenating treatment.
So, you are wrong in this statement as well.


I'll agree with your uncle. Drug use can cause Essence loss by the rules. Nothing even suggests that someone born with only one arm has less Essence though. Nothing in either the Paraplegic or Quadriplegic quality suggests that their nerve damage should come with Essence loss either, nor do you lose Essence from taking the Blind, Stubby Arms, Deformity, Uncontrlled Metastasis or Progeria qualities. Infected have a specific mention of lower Essence as starting characters - limb loss does not.


It doesn't result in Essence loss. It results in Physical Attribute loss (1 point).


The only things on that page in regards to Essence loss are:
- an optional rule of increasing the Essence cost of implants if the surgeon glitches.
and
- a mention that generic and cultured transplants does not cost Essence to implant.
Neither of which refutes TJs statement, or proves yours.

In fact, the only thing that even remotely supports your view-point was mentioned by others: the optional version of the optional Severe Wounds rule in Augmentation - and even that relies entirely upon the gamemaster's judgement. (And even then you tried to refute the existance of the term 'optional optional' rules...)

So where's your 'proof'?

Deep Breath SnowRaven. Just say No to feeding the Troll...