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nicktheviking
I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?
Yerameyahu
He must be leaving huge trails (especially astral), and there are people a lot more powerful than he is.
JonathanC
QUOTE (nicktheviking @ Mar 23 2012, 10:00 AM) *
I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?

You could ask him to stop being a dick. I tried this while running a 3rd edition game, and it worked like a charm.


Sustaining mana spells used to keep you active on the astral plane (so did using a sustaining focus); I'm not sure if that's still true, but if it is he's in for a world of hurt from a bunch of things that can see/harm him with impunity, unless he a) is astrally perceiving at all times to see them coming and b) has a good Astral Combat pool.


Or, you know, just send some drones after him.
VykosDarkSoul
I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?
almost normal
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 01:11 PM) *
I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?


Yep. It's why dual natured critter guards are zomazing.
JonathanC
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 10:11 AM) *
I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?

Oh, most definitely. Anyone with astral perception would see him immediately (and could target him, either with spells or a gun). Also, keep in mind that any time he passes through a ward there's a chance for the spell to pop, and nearly any secured building is going to be heavily warded.
almost normal
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 01:10 PM) *
Or, you know, just send some drones after him.


Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.
JonathanC
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 23 2012, 10:17 AM) *
Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.

IIRC, Improved Invisibility isn't effective against ultrasound vision. And drones are immune to mind control.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 11:16 AM) *
Oh, most definitely. Anyone with astral perception would see him immediately (and could target him, either with spells or a gun). Also, keep in mind that any time he passes through a ward there's a chance for the spell to pop, and nearly any secured building is going to be heavily warded.



So what about a spirit? If it was manifested, would it have to switch back to see him, or does it see in both realms at once?
thorya
I outlined some measures I use here-

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1135793

Also, don't forget to roll for the continuing resistance to control thoughts. He should really only have about a minute of control before he has to cast again.
JonathanC
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 10:21 AM) *
So what about a spirit? If it was manifested, would it have to switch back to see him, or does it see in both realms at once?

A manifested spirit is dual-natured, so it exists on the physical and astral planes at the same time. But keep in mind, the spirit doesn't have to manifest to attack him if he is active on the astral plane.

Again, I'm not sure that this is still the case in 4th edition, but sustaining spells used to keep you visible/active on the astral plane.
Aria
Pretty sure that this has been removed in SR4...although perhaps foci can be disrupted?!? Don't think you can ground spells through them any more though.
Paul
I'd start by ensuring you're actually running the rules as written-obviously plus or minus any house rules. "Mind Control" spells do not automatically equate to victory. Once you've ensured you're using the appropriate rules or not, then I'd start looking at the opposition. If they've cake walked through a few runs have their employer step up his game-"Gee since you guys are so awesome, have I got a job for you!" Start having the opposition respond to the increased usage of these spells-start slowly, suddenly they notice security people stay behind the one way glass, or the remote gun turrets. Gradually up the pressure until it becomes competitive again. The idea is, of course, to make it a challenge but not smash them for fun. Make use of edge and an opponents will to live. (No one takes a security job to eat a bullet, not even in the Sixth World.)

Thorya's thread has a few decent ideas, and I am sure with a little more information we could help you out. Outline the team, the plot and what you're looking to do. We can then start adding in depth commentary if you'd like. But whatever you do just don't screw the player because you're momentarily stumped on how to adjust the game to his creativeness. There's no quicker way to make the game not fun by doing that.

Smile, chuckle and say "You guys got down! Yup. Now that the cake walk runs are out of the way, time to get into the real nightmare whirlwind of betrayal and danger! Hope you enjoyed your prep time!" Then show'em who Daddy is, and what he does. ork.gif
Yerameyahu
Don't forget that you guys are referring to a materialized spirit, not manifested. Everyone mixes them up, they're annoyingly similar.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Aria @ Mar 23 2012, 10:30 AM) *
Pretty sure that this has been removed in SR4...although perhaps foci can be disrupted?!? Don't think you can ground spells through them any more though.

I'd have to check my books, but you may be right. The spells would still be visible on the astral, though, and spells sustained by sustaining foci still get popped by passing through wards (which, again, are common because any awakened person can make them).
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (nicktheviking @ Mar 23 2012, 12:00 PM) *
I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?


Have an astral KE mage show up with two force 6 elementals and a watcher and ask him to wait until the KE Occult Investigations Unit comes to check out his liscense and registration. Bad form on his part. Take him back to the precinct, have him interrogated. Later he gets a message from a watcher from said KE mage saying--you owe me, and if I catch you again..

If he is doing it on the run, wards and an astral mage does wonders. He would have to ineffect cast it twice (once on the astral, and once onf the physical to avoid this. Ultrasound on a drone with a taser or LMG if you want also negates invisibility.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 23 2012, 10:17 AM) *
Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.


Well, Ultra-Wideband Radar totally ignores Invisibility, even the Improved Version.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 23 2012, 10:25 AM) *
I outlined some measures I use here-

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1135793

Also, don't forget to roll for the continuing resistance to control thoughts. He should really only have about a minute of control before he has to cast again.


It will generally be FAR less than a Minute... Force 6 is every 18 Seconds, after all... smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 10:26 AM) *
A manifested spirit is dual-natured, so it exists on the physical and astral planes at the same time. But keep in mind, the spirit doesn't have to manifest to attack him if he is active on the astral plane.

Again, I'm not sure that this is still the case in 4th edition, but sustaining spells used to keep you visible/active on the astral plane.


You cannot ground spells through a Foci or active spell in 4th Edition. Best you could do is disrupt the foci, or Dispell the Spell.
If you are on the same plane (and Astrally perceiving) you could also Counterspell the Spell (or just shoot the Mage).
JonathanC
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 09:42 AM) *
Don't forget that you guys are referring to a materialized spirit, not manifested. Everyone mixes them up, they're annoyingly similar.

A spirit doesn't have to manifest OR materialize to attack a mage astrally.


EDIT: In 4th edition, he would have to be astrally perceiving for you to do so, of course.
Yerameyahu
That's true, but not what I was talking about. smile.gif The comments were talking about materialization, but accidentally calling it manifestation; a common mixup.

The mage in question (wrapped in spells) is indeed visible by anything with astral sense: astral and materialized spirits, astral perceiving/projecting mages, etc.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 12:41 PM) *
That's true, but not what I was talking about. smile.gif The comments were talking about materialization, but accidentally calling it manifestation; a common mixup.

The mage in question (wrapped in spells) is indeed visible by anything with astral sense: astral and materialized spirits, astral perceiving/projecting mages, etc.

I was referring to my comment (which is what I thought you were referring to). I said manifesting, and I meant it. But I can see what you're talking about now; either way though, his question made sense. A manifesting spirit is still present on the astral, and a materialized spirit is still present on the astral.
Yerameyahu
Yes. In both cases, the spirit is using his astral sense, and will see the active spells/foci. smile.gif

If he meant 'manifesting', then I retract everything, but I don't see how a manifesting spirit could possibly 'switch back' or 'see in both realms at once', because manifesting grants no physical senses at all (you're still 100% astral).
JonathanC
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 01:02 PM) *
Yes. In both cases, the spirit is using his astral sense, and will see the active spells/foci. smile.gif

If he meant 'manifesting', then I retract everything, but I don't see how a manifesting spirit could possibly 'switch back' or 'see in both realms at once', because manifesting grants no physical senses at all (you're still 100% astral).

Manifesting, as described on p.193, states that you cannot physically interact with anything on the physical plane, but there's nothing to suggest that you are unable to see things on the physical plane. I recall some fluff to that effect in previous editions, but much like attacking someone through their active foci, I don't think it made the transition to 4th. I don't have Street Magic on me, though.
Yerameyahu
I'm open to the possibility that I remembered wrong, but I could've sworn this was a key limitation of manifesting (at least in SR4). :/

Re: active foci, I meant to ask earlier: can you attack *them* directly (deactivating them), or is that only for projecting mages? I feel like I recalled something like that.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 08:56 PM) *
A spirit doesn't have to manifest OR materialize to attack a mage astrally.


EDIT: In 4th edition, he would have to be astrally perceiving for you to do so, of course.


Yeah, magic is commonly known and accounted for by any competent security planner. Depending upon their cash flow: cheapest is a ward that can snap any active magic (active spells, active focii, etc); next is a spirit with orders to alert friendlies and attack/subdue mages casting unapproved spells and/or break unapproved spells on any guards; then there are the various flavours of adept/mage for higher price tag areas that can directly detect/confront active magic and likely recognize the aftereffects of magic on guards (signatures, etc).

Keep in mind that anyone with pull (connection 3+ likely) would have means and motive to have some form of magical security or risk becoming a pawn to any mage who wanted to play them. That or frequently meeting virtually to narrow their risks to matrix security. Many many options available.

Finally, rep can become an issue. If you gain a rep for mind-raping or puppeteering contacts then everyone's paranoia level regarding you will up several notches. Practically speaking: if the characters were asked to meet a Johnson who had a rep for mind controlling negotiations and mind-raping debriefings how would they react? If they actually agreed how paranoid would they be at the meet.
Rep matters.

As for Invisibility: visual only, doesn't do crap against astral detection or even simply hearing the mage. Add in indirect detection like doors opening etc and you get a presumption of hostile intent coming at you like a bullet; likely literally aka full auto covering fire roughly where the guard heard the sound while he radios an alert to their off-site magical emergency threat response team.

One-trick ponies are easy, especially when they're just using standard spells for their obvious purposes: the juicy bones will have big dogs guarding them. It's the exotic ability combos and custom spells that are more challenging to deal with. Think custom full-sensory version of improved invisibility combined with manascape and/or a few levels of metamagic aura masking.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 01:15 PM) *
I'm open to the possibility that I remembered wrong, but I could've sworn this was a key limitation of manifesting (at least in SR4). :/

Re: active foci, I meant to ask earlier: can you attack *them* directly (deactivating them), or is that only for projecting mages? I feel like I recalled something like that.

I'm the same way with a lot of the fluff around magic/astral that I recall from 3rd edition.

Re: active foci, I don't recall. In 3rd I think you could attack a person wearing an active foci, I believe because it was bound to them with karma. In 4th, I think you can just dispell the effect from the foci with wards, and (possibly; will need to check when I'm not at work) with counterspelling.
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 10:15 PM) *
I'm open to the possibility that I remembered wrong, but I could've sworn this was a key limitation of manifesting (at least in SR4). :/

Re: active foci, I meant to ask earlier: can you attack *them* directly (deactivating them), or is that only for projecting mages? I feel like I recalled something like that.


Active foci have astral presences and can be attacked directly. I'm pretty sure the mage bonded to them is immediately alerted but it could be too late quite quickly due to the difference between astral initiative passes and meat-space passes for most mages, especially with mid-level foci vs a focused astral combatant. Don't remember whether defeating the foci destroys it or just disables it.

OK, jumped over to the FAQ for the following entry:


Can I attack an active focus in Astral Combat? If so, how much damage can it take, and what happens when its damage track is filled up?

This will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. In the meantime, the following is an optional rule gamemasters may choose to implement in their games, based on the Disrupt [Focus] spell:

An active focus is dual-natured and can be attacked using Astral Combat much like a ward or targeted by spells like Disrupt [Focus] (p.16, Digital Grimoire) or other Mana-based spells that deal Physical damage.

From the Disrupt [Focus] spell description: On the astral plane, an active focus has Barrier and Structure ratings equal to its Force. If its Structure rating is reduced to 0, the focus is disrupted and becomes inactive; the magician bonded to the focus cannot gain dice bonuses or any other benefit from the focus until it is reactivated. A focus “heals” a number of boxes of damage equal to its Force every Combat Turn; when all the damage is repaired the owner may spend a Simple Action to reactivate the focus. Disrupting a sustaining focus will also disrupt the spell it is sustaining. Astrally projecting magicians whose foci become disrupted cannot reactivate them until their astral form rejoins their physical body.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, I'm only talking about attacking the focus (deactivating it). Good catch on the FAQ entry for that, HaxDB.
JonathanC
Wait; if a focus has a structure rating equal to its force, and structure rating basically acts as "damage boxes" for a barrier, and the focus heals a number of boxes equal to its force every turn....every focus heals all of its damage every turn.

Seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to inconvenience a mage for one round, but I guess if he's got a major spell bound to that foci (high-force armor spell, increase reflexes, etc.) it could be worth it.
Yerameyahu
Right: he has to reactivate the focus (which is easy in this case, because he's not projecting) and recast the spell (definitely a big problem for him).
HaxDBeheader
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 11:53 PM) *
Right: he has to reactivate the focus (which is easy in this case, because he's not projecting) and recast the spell (definitely a big problem for him).


Very inconvenient for sustaining focii and/or for astrally projecting mages (can't activate/reactivate focii while projecting, have to return to body first). Mildly annoying for all other focii when not astrally projecting. I would be tempted to house-rule this if it came up a lot in my game; but I'm not shy about house-rules so YMMV.
JonathanC
I'd like to see rules for more pernanently damaging foci, or at least bumping up the recovery time.
Yerameyahu
I'd say losing your Imp. Invis is more than mildly annoying (and I can think of some worse ones), but yes: less annoying for the non-projecting mage.

Yeah, something less temporary would be interesting.
Daylen
Have the Johnson use people like Liam Neeson used phones in Taken. That way the Johnson can't be messed with and after a few deals go south immediatly and the team has to take total shit jobs because all the Johnsons know there is a dumbass wanabee on the team... maybe the player will get the idea. As far as real opposition, a team leader with a bunch of grunts can figure out what is going on quickly and put a sniper on mage detail with the right sensing equipment.
KarmaInferno
Locked Doors.

Seriously, they're more effective at catching intruders than you might think. Especially if there's a hidden camera monitoring the door from the far side.




-k
Midas
QUOTE (HaxDBeheader @ Mar 23 2012, 09:17 PM) *
Finally, rep can become an issue. If you gain a rep for mind-raping or puppeteering contacts then everyone's paranoia level regarding you will up several notches. Practically speaking: if the characters were asked to meet a Johnson who had a rep for mind controlling negotiations and mind-raping debriefings how would they react? If they actually agreed how paranoid would they be at the meet.
Rep matters.

This is very important when reining in mages who are trigger-happy with mind control spells. There is a definite taboo about puppeteering folk willy-nilly (for creepy factor I always have a mental image of the marionette guy in Heroes). Even taking steps such as using Alter Memories or laes afterwards, most NPCs will have a reasonable idea that they something untoward happened, and some might have the clout to get a mage to check for astral signs of tampering (while the rules are unclear on this, I figure forensic mages with high assensing can tell that a mind control or memory altering spell has been cast, even if the signature has been cleansed and he can't tell exactly who cast the spell or what memories were altered).

Look at things from your NPCs' perspectives - they went to a bar to meet the PCs with a proposition from a gang. They wake up 6 hours later (laes) or remember the PCs weren't there so hung around drank a few beers waiting for the no-show PCs (Alter memories). The former will definitely arouse suspicions (although they won't necessarily know the PCs were behind it); the latter may fall apart if it is out of character for said NPC (perhaps unbeknowest to the PCs he is a teetotaler, or he knows if the PCs were a no show he would head straight out and report back to the gang/look for them elsewhere). Mud won't necessarily stick one time, but if it happens regularly NPCs will start to put 2 and 2 together and the PCs will start finding NPCs at large unwilling to deal with them, and job offers might start to dry up. Rep is everything, and the last thing you want is rep for being a mind controlling bastard.

As for Improved Invisibility, as already noted wards, astral observers, ultrasound and doors can all catch the mage out, as can sound should he glitch his Infiltration roll or something. The first 2 are fairly common methods of astral security, and sprinkling the occasional security guard/drone with ultrasound and you will raise the tension every time the mage uses the spell, even if he gets away with it more often than not - there's nothing worse than taking a full burst while waltzing around thinking you're invisible to the world ...
Psikerlord
Yeah I think the best opportunity cost for mind control style spells is the ongoing and cumulative effect on the team's reputation (not just the mage...). That will affect their future negotiations (sometimes for the better, I suppose? But often for the worse). Also, in older editions, and perhaps still in 4th, mind control/probe spells were highly illegal (not even courts used them) - the equivalent of a rape or something, I forget. But I would suggest KE etc would take extra notice of crimes involving these kinds of spells, making the heat on the team just a little hotter with each passing module. The team becomes more risky to deal with as a result (heat, plus the general rep issue), which over time probably ends in favour of the mage reigning it in and only using the spells sparingly.

For continual invisibility, wards etc should shut them down from time to time, spirit spotters, and don't forget the mage can still be heard just fine. Once detected, invisibility is good but not game winning. There are certainly ways to help neutralise it as folks have already mentioned. Any guard with an ultrasound sight negates invisibility (the ultrasound sight description says so). And presumably if that guard is sharing targeting info with his team, they all know where the "invisible" mage is.

No argument though that both of these kinds of spells are, generally speaking, freakin' awesome. I forget what the drain is on them, but probably it should be a bit higher if you have a mage constantly using them.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 04:33 PM) *
I'd say losing your Imp. Invis is more than mildly annoying (and I can think of some worse ones), but yes: less annoying for the non-projecting mage.

Yeah, something less temporary would be interesting.


So Directly damage the focus. Should not be all that hard to do. It can be destroyed just like any other item.
Yerameyahu
That's specifically what we're talking about, TJ. smile.gif SR4 doesn't have much in the way of destroying objects that aren't vehicles or walls. From the FAQ, it seems that the only thing you can do to a focus from the *astral* is disrupt it (for a turn). On the physical, the GM would have to rule on the durability, I guess.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 07:51 AM) *
That's specifically what we're talking about, TJ. smile.gif SR4 doesn't have much in the way of destroying objects that aren't vehicles or walls. From the FAQ, it seems that the only thing you can do to a focus from the *astral* is disrupt it (for a turn). On the physical, the GM would have to rule on the durability, I guess.


I guess you could look at it that way. I look at it as an item that was crafted. As such, it can be destroyed. An Ignite spell on the feather focus will incinetrate it, and thus the focus goes away. You can melt the gold ring, etc. Most of that will be a plot device, because it is generally seen as a dick move by the GM when it happens, but the focus IS just an item. Hell, Wreck (Foci) would be a very powerful spell in that regard, because you are not targeting the enchantment (Dispelling or attacking from Astral), you are targeting the item. And while the enchantement may regenerate quickly, the item cannot. *shrug*
Yerameyahu
It's the only way you can look at it, and we're both looking at it the same way.

Of course it can be destroyed (did someone say it can't?), but you have to invent the rules for it. smile.gif The optional rule suggested by the FAQ refers only to astral, and implies that (on the astral) you can only temporarily disable. In general, SR4 does not have rules for destroying normal, carried objects.
Elfenlied
On a side note: Does Wreck(Cyberware) work then?
Surukai
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Mar 25 2012, 11:25 AM) *
On a side note: Does Wreck(Cyberware) work then?


Turn to Goo (street magic) is that and better, instant Crowd-control and you can extract unharmed cyber to sell too. (And abusing that is nearly as bad for your reputation I hope ^^)

30% of a fully cybered sam (0.3* 250,000) is tons more than a majority of missions, only costs a "black market pipeline (cyberware)" quality for trivial fencing smile.gif


Abusing any lame-ass tactics (tape 8 stun grenades together and toss since stunnades have no "falloff from distance", emotitoys, laës, recoil comp 10 supermach100 with SnS, SnS in general, oversummoned spirits, dart guns ignoring armor, possession magic, any SM spirits) should get you instant crap rep and get dried up on work, not just mind control.

The alternative "If you use it so will the bad guys" is nothing I like at all. It turns combat to just a matter of massive hard counters and reduces the options to just a few "optimal" choices of spells/guns/gear/traditions in a mad arms race instead of having the fun variety of combat and threats that seem to be intended in the shadowrun world where style, rep and cool is just important as 17S(e)+net hits smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Mar 25 2012, 02:25 AM) *
On a side note: Does Wreck(Cyberware) work then?


Well, Since Wreck is a Direct Spell, you would need to actually see the Cyberware for it to be effective. I would say maybe, but it is generally out of the scope of the game, again because it is a dick move by the GM (or any player that chooses to have such a spell). But, then again, you could concievably "Call a Shot" on a target (Ware, Foci, Gun, whatever) to have it directly take the damage rather than the wielder of said equipment (pending GM approval, of courtse. it is an option on the called shot list), so I guess there is precedent for such effects. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
My position is that Turn to Good doesn't even work, so no, you can't target their cyberware separately. biggrin.gif

You can call shots on things like that using guns, not direct magic. Indirect combat spells would be okay, maybe. But SR4 is very vague about damaging carried or worn gear, so implants should qualify for the same vagueness.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 25 2012, 07:23 AM) *
My position is that Turn to Good doesn't even work, so no, you can't target their cyberware separately. biggrin.gif

You can call shots on things like that using guns, not direct magic. Indirect combat spells would be okay, maybe, but SR4 is very vague about damaging carried or worn gear, so implants should qualify.


Indeed, I agree with the Turn to Goo position.
Really one spell that should either not exist, or suffer a MAJOR re-write. Not sure how to re-write it though.
We just don't use it.
Surukai
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2012, 04:26 PM) *
Indeed, I agree with the Turn to Goo position.
Really one spell that should either not exist, or suffer a MAJOR re-write. Not sure how to re-write it though.
We just don't use it.


Our group mage used it for corpse disposal, not for free cybertech but the spell description kind of suggests that the target (the fleshy person) is goo, but cyber is unaffected and that would leave a puddle with unscathed cyberware to loot but the "retardedness" of that tactic have prevented anyone from using it.

Mind control is of similar level. It is a bit sad because I'd love to see some "balanced" and fun mind control or alternative ways to 'win' than just fill stun/phys track with damage. A bit like the ideas with hacking (That sadly takes way too many turns to do effectively in combat compared to just oneshotting stuff with the flavor of the month spell/gun/nade).
onlyghostdanceswhiledrunk
@OP: just be glad he isnt using Trid Phantasm as it does effect everything property wise except astral biggrin.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Surukai @ Mar 25 2012, 11:39 AM) *
Turn to Goo (street magic) is that and better, instant Crowd-control and you can extract unharmed cyber to sell too. (And abusing that is nearly as bad for your reputation I hope ^^)
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 25 2012, 03:23 PM) *
My position is that Turn to Good doesn't even work, so no, you can't target their cyberware separately. biggrin.gif
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2012, 03:26 PM) *
Indeed, I agree with the Turn to Goo position.
Really one spell that should either not exist, or suffer a MAJOR re-write. Not sure how to re-write it though.
We just don't use it.
QUOTE (Surukai @ Mar 25 2012, 06:38 PM) *
Our group mage used it for corpse disposal, not for free cybertech but the spell description kind of suggests that the target (the fleshy person) is goo, but cyber is unaffected and that would leave a puddle with unscathed cyberware to loot but the "retardedness" of that tactic have prevented anyone from using it.

I don't understand where people get the idea that you can just easily harvest the cyber 'unharmed'. The living tissue affected is described as 'sticky and glue-like' and has a barrier Armor rating equal to Body + net hits. The sticky goo- and cyber-pile would be interspersed with clothes and gear, and none of it would be very easy to remove intact given the armor rating...
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