To clarify: trid phantasm can only ADD illusions of people etc, not remove them. This can be clearly seen if you try to rebuild it from the illusion creation rules if you doubt it. You could make a hallway seem a half-meter narrower and squeeze along that half meter with an illusionary wall between you and the camera but you could not use it as an improv invisibility: that is an explicit effect that has to be written into a spell.

It's not the cyberware-stealing factor that makes Goo so messed up for me, snowRaven; Turn to Stone is equally bad. Even if a spell should exist that can so wholly alter a person, it shouldn't 'target' flesh differently from essence-paid implants.

HaxDBeheader: while I'm as pleased to limit the power of Trid Phantasm as much as the next guy, I'm not sure why your point needs to be true. You can create the illusion of an empty, deep area on a hallway with just paint, let alone 3D magic.

Indeed... Too much hassle and cheesy to boot.

@Yerameyahu: I don't tend to have any issues with Petrify. It affects all parts equally, even the 'ware. They all become stone (or calcium carbonate, as described). We include the Cyber, because it IS paid with Essence (May be interpreted as a House Rule, but I would argue that one). It is, effectively, flesh, for the purposes of the spell, because anything paid with Essence is essentially part of the Flesh as far as Magic is concerned, at least by fluff. I guess you could apply that logic to Turn to Goo, but I just do not like that spell at all anyways, so why bother.

As yerameyahu said, AFAIK by RAW you can do "illusion of nothing" or "illusion of boquet of roses" in place of the HMG and it will work.

As far as reworking things according to the SM rules, shadowrun is laughable at best with internal constistency and the trid phantasm spell came out well before that release.

AFAIK, TJ, the cyber doesn't become stone. If that's not true, then nevermind.

That would involve very precise perspective-imitating work and would only work from one point of view. In the limited scenario of the single camera and requiring a few extra hits to craft something that specialized I'l probably let it happen. That is essentially camouflage not invisibility though, has some pretty significant limitations, and is really just a deluxe version of the fake wall I suggested. Like I said, if you check the spell writing rules they explicitly separate out directly concealing as a separate effect.

I'd be very curious where you get that impression from. I've had this solid impression since the first time they introduced spell creation rules and they have been very consistent with every SR# ever since: concealing is a special effect over and above basic illusions which add fake objects/entities. Trid Phantasm is a simple area effect multisense physical illusion. Nothing prevents you from making a custom version with the drain bumped up to add the "conceal" ability too, pretty normal for illusion the mages I've made since it is so ridiculously useful. I'm pretty sure Trid Phantasm was even used as an example "build a spell with our spell creation system" where it explicitly did not include the "conceals" modifier.

pg.201 SR4:

"Single-Sense illusions affect only one sense. Full Sensory illusions affect all senses...... Physical Illusions: Physical illusion spells create actual images or alter physical properties such as light or sound

The observer must generate more hits than the spellcaster to determine that the illusion is not real. If the spell is not completely resist, the character is fully affected by the illusion.


Pg. 202 SR4:

These area spells creat illusions of any object, creature or scene the caster desires. They can create an illusion of anything the caster has seen before, from a flower or a credstick to a dragon breathing fire, as long as the illusion is no larger than the spells area.... Trid Phantasm affects technological sensors as well.




The description says all senses (unlike the very acute description in improved invisibility. Hence you are quite easily able to do what you will with it as it actually changes the properties that are perceived by the viewer (ie a boquet of flowers that is cast over an hmg will not respond to MAD scanners etc cause it changes the properties).

[citation needed]

Seriously, what's the timeframe there? If someone "pays" for cyber, then cyber counts as flesh, but if they lose an arm for a month, and then tape a hook to the stump, is that suddenly a flesh hook? Sounds bogus to me.

You don't pay essence for a hook.

Essence-paid gear is supposed to be magically inseparable from the whole person; it's a basic principle of SR magic. Another is that magic can't selectively target subunits of whole things, especially creatures.

I see nothing in what you have described that contradicts me, in fact it is explicitly what I said you could do.
It does not say you can erase an existing sense although you can cover it up: you can't silence a gunshot but you can make a car crash sound to cover it up; you can't make your sidearm invisible but you can make it look like a bouquet of flowers.

Text on Street Magic page 163:
Illusions that hide or conceal rather than creating sensory input—such as Invisibility—are harder, and so receive a specific Drain modifier.

Table on Street Magic page 163:
Illusion Spells
Obvious –1
Realistic +0
Multi-Sense +0
Single-Sense –2
Illusion Hides or Conceals +2

Trid Phantasm spell description from SR4A page 209:
These area spells create convincing illusions of any object, creature, or scene the caster desires. They can create an illusion of anything the caster has seen before, from a flower or a credstick to a dragon breathing fire, as long as the illusion is no larger than the spell’s area.

This description fits with the "add anything" interpretation include an illusion of a wall to hide behind. It does not mention anything resembling invisibility/hush/silence/etc.


Trid phantasm: physical (drain +1); multi-sensory (+0); realistic (+0); LOS target (+0); area (+2) = F/2 +3 drain as listed in the spell description.

Given that 'weaker' is always better for magic, that's good enough for me. The rules of evidence are lower for nerfing things, after all.

It says alter, why cant alter also be silence? It may be because I have sr4 not sr4a?

Technically, "alter physical properties such as light or sound" makes it so you can conceal with it. Altering light showing blue to say, the nice white of the hallway, is just alteration. You're concealing.

Though I agree making magic stronger is not necessary. That said, we've always played Trid Phantasm this way, where you can use it to conceal.

You're missing the point entirely. Having your arm blown off is a loss of essence. You're not "paying" for anything. It's a basic principle of SR. Suddenly attaching a cybernetic device to the stump doesn't mean that loss of essence is now a paid for purchase, anymore then you could steal a car and claim it was paid for in nuyen from the cash the Johnson screwed you out of.

Is there a page reference for losing essence when losing limbs? As in a hard, actual rule?

No. But there is a page reference for losing essence.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hm. I wonder if a victim's brainwave patterns alter when affected by magical mind control.

If so, have a simrig system with personafix chips. If the system detect likely mind control, it kicks in, overriding the guard's mind and replacing it with SuperCop 4.1.



-k

Pretty sure this is wrong. Adding cyber/bioware costs essence. Losing limbs does not affect essence. Which leads to people making jokes about cutting off their arm and replacing the lost limb with a rigged robotic arm for 0 essence loss.

SR4a pg 68 is the best im going to find without looking through every book. It exists. If folks want to ignore it, fine by me. I'd rather keep the trolls occupied in the PPP/Mil-spec thread then let them run rampant in here too.

EDIT:



PG 207 sr4a

If that's the best you're going to find, then you haven't proven anything. The "damage" talked about in the quotes is unspecified. Losing Magic is not the same as losing Essence - this is (I think) a holdover from previous editions, where severe wounds could hurt your Magic score.

Furthermore, Augmentation talks about cloned organs and tissues taking up no Essence when implanted.

Sounds like you're trolling, actually.

In previous editions they were quite explicit that you temporarily lost essence when you lost a limb; replace it with a cloned part and your essence recovered; replace it with implants and the relevant essence loss occurred. This first showed in SR1 or SR2. Pretty sure it stuck around for SR3, never bothered to look for it in SR4 since it seemed self-consistent since the essence rationale hadn't changed.

Yeah, you could be right - my recollection is hazy, never having played SR3, and SR1/2 were a long time ago...

I can't remember that at all.

Afaik, you've never lost essence for losing a limb in any edition. You've had a great chance of losing magic at deadly wounds, though.

I'll take a look in my books when I get home.

It has been a while, I can't rule out the possibility that was a house rule extrapolated from the magic loss. I didn't think it was but I haven't seen SR1/SR2 books in almost 15 years .

Gawd, what a bunch of old senile people we are Talk about the blind leading the blind...

almost normal, you're completely wrong. You don't lose essence for losing a limb (standard rules; there is an Optional-Optional rule), and it would be totally irrelevant to this question regardless.

You don't pay essence for adding a hook. Essence-paid implants are totally different, and magically count as part of the whole body. This is in no way related to any other essence loss.

Glad yahoo showed up to troll some more. Sure glad he doesn't let things like the rules or facts get in his way when he makes his irrelevant proclamations.

Fact of the matter is there is more evidence you lose essence from damage then you don't. If you'd quit the passive aggressive smiley nonsense and actually find a contradictory rule, maybe folks would take you seriously.

PSEDIT: Congratulations on mocking someone in the last thread for suggesting there was more then one type of RAW, while simultaneously creating an "optional-optional" rule? Your imagined sense of superiority knows no bounds.

Emo much there normal? There really only are optional rules in 4E for that kind of stuff and its mostly magic loss, NOT essence (unless you use the grittier gameplay optionals). Dont try to attack him for pointing out that by RAW essence loss for major injuries does not occur.

In fact i have the exact page for you:

pg23 Augmentation:

Under tweaking the rules (aka optional)

Essence Loss: Severe wounds dont just threaten the character's life they also drain away life force. Each such wound inflicts between .1 and 1 essence loss as determined by the gamemaster.

tl;dr: Shut it

Damage disrupting holistic integrity?

You gotta be wearing one thick set of blinders to suggest that doesn't refer to essence loss from damage. Whatever works for your game is good enough for me, but some folks around here sure get butthurt when they find out they're wrong.

Were going by raw now what makes you feel good mate. I even edited my post with the page numbers. Your quote is about players with low essence, not about players losing limbs. Reducto ad Absurdium much? A hook isnt an implant and neither is a lost limb going to cost you essence

IMO:

The MAD scanner should still detect the gun. The gun is still there. It's properties (i.e. being of a ferrous metal) hasn't changed. You've covered the gun with an illusion of a boquet of flowers, so that it looks, feels, and smells like a boquet of flowers to an observer (even the scanner). However, the gun still exists, inside the flowers. The illusion is concealing the gun, by nature of being overtop of it...but the gun still exists. And if a MAD scanner could detect the gun if it were inside a real boquet of flowers, it'd detect it inside an illusory set of flowers.

If, instead of a boquet of flowers, you had made it an illusion of a big chunk of metal...then that might block the MAD scanner, as it would read the illusion, and not the gun. But then either way it's still going off.

It's an illusion. You can create/alter sounds and light (appearances), but you cannot directly suppress/eliminate sounds/light without the additional specific modifier.

You've got a an object in a white hallway that you want to hide. So you make it white, like the hallway. Or you put a big fake illusory plant on top of it. It's not invisible, but it might be camouflaged or obscured. If someone moved the fake plant (can you move an illusion?), the object would still be there. Likewise, if it's just white, it's still visible if you manage to change your perspective (ala the bridge in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade), or if you move the object.

Alter means change, you can change the properties, as the observer reacts to them. So yes, the mad scanner will only believe there are flowers there if it is affected by the spell because it is fully affected by the spell; to the MAD scanner, nothing is there but the flowers.

Also we as players know it to be an illusion but it is so real and changes properties so that it is in itself reality to those not able to beat the threshold.

It specifically says technological sensors in the physical part and it states all properties unlike the limitations of improved invis which is stated specifically as light only.

Erat, then why not the illusion of a MAD absorbing fabric?

So physical illusions aren't really illusions, but manipulations/alterations. But only if they aren't resisted...

Which makes my brain hurt.

So if you don't resist, it's a boquet of flowers. If you do resist, it's a gun. Can you still shoot a boquet of flowers?

What physical properties can be altered? Invisibility is defeated by radar/sonar, IIRC, which would argue that not all physical properties can be affected.


Almostnormal: I'm not sure that's even possible, given the nature of how MAD (magnetic anomaly detector, i.e. detects variations in a magnetic field) works. Then again, it is magic.

I think (at least how it would make sense to me) its magic that allows the transformation. If you are the bearer of the gun then you can still shoot it because the illusion is not intended for you? Kind of an eye of the beholder type thing? Also the description for invisibility specifically states that it is only light etc etc whereas trid says everything?

Except that you do not lose Essence for losing a Limb. You lose Essence for replacing that lost Limb with a Cybernetic Implant. You could go out and regrow a clonal limb and have it reattached, and your mage would not lose Essence for it. Add Cyber Limb, and Essence goes bye-bye.

You cannot attach any Cyber WITHOUT paying the Essence.

As for losing Essence from Wounds. I believe that has been covered (It is an OPTIONAL RULE), and page numbers given (Augmentation).

It'd be covered under essence void.

Um. You've never lost Essence for stuff like losing a limb. Not in 4 editions.

You only lose Essence when you ADD something foreign to the body, like a cyberlimb.

You can lose MAGIC sometimes for heavy trauma, depending on the edition of the game, but not Essence.





-k

I was here first, almost normal, but your constant sniping continues to amuse. I so rarely get to enjoy the attention of a personal vendetta.

The SR4 rules clearly have no essence loss for losing a limb, unless you use an Optional variant *of* an Optional rule (Augmentation); this is what Optional-Optional meant. Obviously.

And again, that question has zero bearing on whether essence-paid implants are magically considered 'part' of the whole person (they are).

HOW?



Exactly.

It really calls into question the nature of reality, and how perception creates reality. If you resist the illusion, you have a gun that works. If you don't, the illusion changes the physical property of it into something else entirely?

Let's say you have a big ol'rare earth magnet. Now, that magnet has physical properties, such as being magnetic (natch).

Bob the mage casts a physical illusion, to conceal the magnet's magnetic properties (arguably a physical property, perhaps by changing it into a cup of coffee).

So for those that do not resist the illusion, it is not magnetic?

For those that do resist, it is?

So does it, or does it not, attract metallic objects within its vicinity?

non living objects dont get a shot at resisting so id rule that it does not attract metallic objects within its vicinity.

Tricky. At some level, you have to give up—we can't have illusionary guns killing people, or illusionary fusion reactors produce megawatts. Or, illusion-shrouded fires *not* burning people.

But then for those who resisted the illusion, it would no longer be magnetic? What about a laser sight on a gun that was concealed by an illusion: would a mirror reflect it? Would it appear on a wall? By that logic, the laser sight no longer works. What about a device that emits wireless signals? It suddenly ceases transmitting?

IMO, treating the effects of the illusion spells as actual alterations to the objects being affected (despite what the description says about altering; perhaps it was meant that it could alter the level of light in a room, or alter the color of an object, as opposed to its physical structure or chemical properties; what properties are eligible to be altered?) creates a lot of problems. Allowing it to create fake images/overlays is fine. If someone resists, they see through the illusion. If they don't, they don't see through the illusion. Either way, the underlying object is still there (UNLESS the spells has the concealing modifier).

Not that that isn't complicated as well.

Sorry, Essence hole, not void.



Since essence loss from damage can be repaired by reattachment of the limb, there'd be a hole from the same removal of the limb by damage. At least, if you want to go by common sense, fiction, and intent, as well as a few splotches of rules here and there.

As for yahoo... seriously? I'm sorry you don't like being wrong. I like you. I really do. It's your self-centeredness that seems to blind you to reason.

but this is flat out wrong... the reason there is an essence hole in the first place is you attempted to replace a part of your essence (your spiritual energy) with a machine that partially tricks the brain into accepting it... not because you sustained grievous injury....

I'd have to agree. The loss of a part of you is not what drives Essence loss. It's the introduction of foreign materials into your Self.

Here's a question: is someone born missing a limb(s) also missing Essence? What about other deformities?

I could see ruling that the loss of a limb might drive a temporary Essence loss, due to the shock to the system/sense of self, but eventually the person would regain that sense of self. IMO.

It's not PC, but yeah, they would have less essence. Just like someone born infected has less essence. My adopted uncle was born with heroin in his system, I'd say he's got less essence as well.

I've always understood that illusion spells alter the perception of things. A gun disguised as a bunch of flowers (assuming it was not resisted) would appear as a bunch of flowers. It would also smell and feel like a bunch of flowers as well. To the person who is holding said flowers, (the runner carring said flowers into the office), it would still be a gun. If while the target smelled the flowers while the the runner pulled the trigger, the target would still get their brains splattered. But then at that point everyone would get another resistance roll, and probably have a bonus if they saw what happened.