Fascinating. Considering you have the classic books to use, or can just run the game 'old school', but it is much more difficult to run a campaign which progresses if you have nothing to support it.

And here I was thinking I was the only one that was shipping this.

It's like saying anyone can become a Marine sniper if they can find a sniper rifle.

Err, no. That would be 'anyone can become a military hacker if...' Anyone can train to be a sniper with the proper tools and knowledge. Funny thing though -- programs probably come with a 'how to'. Or do all hackers need to find someone to teach them what to do?

Anyone with a sniper rifle can learn to shoot it, given the right tools, time and effort.
Anyone with the right software can learn to be a hacker, given the right tools, time and effort.
Absolutely the same logic.

Hackers need someone to teach them as much as snipers do. A rifle comes with a manual, just like a cracking program does.

And hacking is not about knowing how to use each of the programs' functions, it's when to use which and how to use them, what are the common software vulnerabilities and how to exploit them, and how to find new ones, etc. Hacking is not launching a script and going away for a cup of tea, just like system administration isn't.

My question is, with all the reality-disconnects that SR has, most of which we all take more or less in stride, why do some of them end up being the things to spark debates like this, but not others?

It's not the mere fact that at some point, things become too fantastical for certain tastes. It's not that eventually you get so far from reality that various people can't continue to suspend their disbelief. It's that the things which prove to be the final straw are always something other than what you'd expect them to be.

I mean, we're all cool with mythological creatures of every culture manifesting in various physical forms through some nebulous, inexplicable "return of magic" to the world. We all accept that magic can manipulate matter and energy in ways that contradict ordinary physics without any more explanation than a handwave and a muttering of "a wizard did it!". We can easily stomache so many absurd notions that are just pure fantasy. But then we get all pissed off over how the game world handles the organizational systems of computers that communicate wirelessly?

Why does that particular quirk hit us so hard? Is it a sort of Uncanny Valley effect? Is the wireless Matrix perhaps not fantastical enough for us? Is it that because the matrix is so similar to our extant wireless communication, that it's that much more jarring when it differs in absurd or illogical ways?

The Wired Matrix of yore was no less absurd. It was built pretty much directly out of the '80s concept of cyberspace, which we all know was just the bizarre popular imaginings about those strange, complex computer things that the future was going to be built on, right? So why didn't we get pissed off about all those fantastical, idiotic, unrealistic qualities the old matrix possessed? Why do some of us still, even today, look back fondly on the ludicrous notion of inhabiting cyberspace? Is it simply so far removed from reality that we're just happy to accept it as an entertaining absurdity, much like elves and dragons and vampires?

~Umi

Or you get Muscle Toner and Reflex Recorder and

The phrase that pays is internal consistancy. As long as a universe remains constant, people will accept the oddness. For example, if green Kryptonite always takes away Superman's powers, the how and why isn't *that* important, as long as it always does what it's supposed to do. If he blasts soem with his heat vision, then gets more powerful, we go, "Hey! That's not how that works!" ... even though the whole thing is a fantasy. You broke the unwritten code.

So, if Elves start showing up as 4'10" wolf-riders instead of 6'6" regal people, there'd better be a darn good reason, because that's not what was supposed to happen.

Thus, if Great Dragons are these great big kickers of butt, but someone walks over and knocks Lofwyr out with a punch, people will be up in arms.

But how is the Wireless Matrix not internally consistant?

The big complaints in this portion of the thread were about the game's genre and setting - about Cyberpunk and Post-Cyberpunk and then a bit about transhumanism. Specific complaints touched on the "jump" from the 2050s to the 2070s, and the shift from the Wired Matrix to the Wireless Matix. Various arguments and points were brought up - chiefly that [1] the Wired Matrix was cooler (which is entirely subjective); [2] that the Wireless Matrix doesn't suit the game's cyberpunk origins (but somehow dragons and elves do? I musta missed those parts of Neuromancer, Blade Runner, and Ghost in The Shell); and [3] that the Wireless Matrix doesn't make sense and isn't realistic.

There's lots of game lore about the Wireless Matrix. The Crash 2.0 is just as internally consistant as anything else written up to explain other in-world events. Pax, Winternight, their megavirus, the EMP strikes on major Matrix centers... it all makes just as much sense as any other major storyline developments. You've got the backbone of the old Matrix destroyed, and you've got NeoNET filling the vacuum with their new wireless Matrix.

But does the new Matrix make any sense? Is it secure, and effective? Is it well designed, well structured, and well thought out? Maybe not, but who cares! It's better than no matrix at all, and a lot of people stand to profit quite a lot by it!

In game terms, the new Matrix allowed for the game to reflect some aspects of actual wireless communications in the real world today, in the form new game mechanics that changed the way hackers were able to play the game. In story terms, it allowed for progression of the overarching storyline, with major changes in the corporate world and the tying up of a lot of old strings. Old arc characters were laid to rest, and new ones came to light.

It's not very different than the shift from LoneStar to Knight Errant, if you stop and think about it. In game terms, the shift to Knight Errant allowed for the game to reflect new aspects of modern policing that previously weren't a part of the SR universe, or of reality. And in story terms, it, too, helped progress the storyline, again with corporate shake-ups and a rotation of the cast of major characters. But how many people go around complaining about the lack of internal consistancy of that particular setting change? How many people complain that Knight Errant just isn't as cool as LoneStar always was, or that Knight Errant doesn't quite fit the game's genre properly? How many people point out just how unrealistic and illogical Knight Errants operations are compared to actual policework?

I still think the problem is familiarity. If the average player were more knowledgeable about real law enforcement practices, we probably would bitch and moan about Knight Errant's absurdities and inconsistancies from reality. But because the average player or GM is only vaguely knowledgeable about police practices, we're better able to suspend our disbelief. Meanwhile, if we as a whole knew less about computers and wireless communication, we'd be just as happy with the modern matrix as people in the 90s used to be with the concept of cyberspace and getting somehow sucked into a digital world Tron-style.

A quick personal example. I went to go see The Avengers with friends when it came out. And the one moment that destroyed my suspension of disbelief was the aircraft carrier. Why? Because my grasp of the physics involved made the concept so laughably absurd that I couldn't NOT be struck dumb by it. But for my friends who had no such grasp of the impossibility of the vehicle, there was no such disruption to their suspension of disbelief. And even with those of my friends who were aware of the physics, there were some who were such great fans of the comics, who were so eagerly anticipating the inclusion of the iconic vehicle for geeking-out reasons, that they without effort were able to forgive the craft's absurdity. Despite knowing it was completely ludicrous, they had no problem at all accepting it.

~Umi

There are a lot of little polish things that need to be amended and clarified, but listing all of them is an old topic that's better linked to than reiterated.


Here is the one thing I most want from 5th ed.
I want every piece of gear to have a date of introduction. Then I want to be able to decide when my game is set.

This would solve so many issues for everyone wanting to go back to ____ or keep ____ out of their game and would make time passing in game fun because the new X just came out and now your top flight Y is last years model.

Even new players could experience every major event in the series history, and all the old missions could be updated with new mechanics and re-released.
Everybody wins.


Mechanics-wise, I want the designers to come up with 50 fun-ass shadow running scenarios and then look at how the rules interact in those instances. At that point they need to figure out how to tighten it down rules-wise, deciding what rules (and rolls, but not necessarily rolls,) are necessary to accomplish what feats. (After that, spell big chunks of it out ala Anatomy of a Shadowrun. This is critical for new players.) Naturally the Matrix rules are at the top of the "unfuck this plz" list when it comes to tightening up the rules based on the effect and actions taken. Basically, I want to see them work backward from "I want this effect" to "how is that effect achieved in a fun and interesting way."

Also, integrate knowledge and active skills more. These lines are already pretty blurry. For example, Shadowing is just the understanding of when to use Infiltration, Con or Disguise while maintaining your Perception. It's a skill made up of other skills and governed by knowledge, not rigor. Abstract skills like this need to be better defined to get in line with the concrete combat rules. We get a whole 8th of the book talking about what a pistols skill is all about, but you can't give any idea on what 11 net hits on an Infiltration test might mean?

You know, the more I talk, the less the impact.
So, reiterating the primary point, I want Shadowrun 5th ed to give me access to ALL OF SHADOWRUN not just the next few years or whatever.
I want to be able to play a game that takes place before the day of goblinization or during one of the primary VITAS outbreaks.
I wanna get shut up in that Arcology or stranded in Bug City.
I wanna sabotage a comet probe.
I wanna shoot General Saito in the face.
I want to PLAY SHADOWRUN
ALL OF IT
GIMMIE

Here's an example from Used Car Lot:
http://imgur.com/niHT8

Just being an imp, but 11 net hits on an Infiltration test means you're undetected. *snicker*

But yes, more than two paragraphs for the entire Stealth skill group would be nice.

~Umi

Wakshaani hit the nail on the head (although you hit a few other topics which are also true).

And to be clear, no one is arguing that the old-school matrix connection totally worked either. We've had four versions of Shadowrun, and four versions of the matrix. The problem is that real-life hacking takes a loooong time, and doesn't fit in well with the fast-paced style of a team-based infiltration game. SR4 did make hacking a lot faster, easier, and better integrated with the team, but it had costs in that it made hacking more silly. I agree with the fans who said 'try again please!'

Ideally matrix should:
- Play fast and integrate with a team actively infiltrating a facility
- Make sense (storing your work-critical files on a server a five-year-old can hack into doesn't make sense)
- Not violate laws of physics (this is a subset of 'make sense', above), unless we're actually saying this is a magic matrix
- Add to the sense that this is a real world, where people use these computers for work, and it isn't just 'another challenge the GM is throwing at you'
- Be balanced
- Be fun (this is perhaps the toughest one to quantify)
- Be cool! (plugging your brain directly into the computer is cooler than a technicolor dwarf waving in the air)

I think SR4 really focused on that first one (and did well!) but lost a lot on some of the others.

See, now that looks great. I'd much rather Arsenal had less stuff in it, but all the stuff be laid out like that. If we weren't on the cusp of a new edition, I might even go back and buy those pdfs... Hell, I might buy them anyway.

I'd like to see Stealth and Camoflage overhauled - along with Chameleon suits, Camoflage suits, Silencers, and so on.

For starters, I think things like camoflage clothing or chameleon rigs should provide a BONUS to the user's skills, not a malus to observers' perception rolls.

That way, there's no questions like "how does Disguise (Camoflage) work, when you're alreadyw earing a chameleon suit?" The answer would be simple: the suit gives you +4 to the roll, as it's coloration can be shifted to whatever is needed.

Then, I'd like to see firearms (etc) grant a bonus to observers' perception checks. So, if say a silencer is worth -4 (-6 or integral models) ... and light pistols are +2, heavy pistols +3, SMGs +4, shotguns and rifles +6, sniper rifles +8, antimateriel rifles +9, and so on? Sure, sure, slap an integral silencer on your .50BMG Barret. Great, now it's only as loud as an Ares Predator. Congratulations. But it's not silent, yet.

(Maybe let silencers push things as far as -2 or -3 net, but I'm no sure about even that.)

I think this is a great idea!

Could be a decent idea, but I think it'd just be too much of a PITA for the writers, most of whom are underpaid enough as it is.

Am I reading this right? "Sell us bad product, because good one would cause you money to produce"?

Where are you reading that?

Do YOU feel like going through all of the gear, matching them up with source books from old editions and coming up with dates for them? I sure as hell know I wouldn't, and I wouldn't expect the writers (be they freelance or otherwise) to go through all that. Gives me a headache just thinking about doing such a thing.

That's a week's work, without putting too much effort.
Flipping through a dozen books - not exactly rocket science.

Then send Hardy an email offering to do it for free if you think it's so easy.

How about I support it in a thread on suggestions for the new edition, instead?
And people who get paid for writing it will do the work they're paid for?

Either the old books have this information in them, in which case, it's as easy as making a list and skimming some texts, or they don't, in which case it's as easy as making shit up.
It's probably the easiest task any writer could hope for.

The important part is that it sets things up for old works to be updated and resold.
That's work for writers, money for Catalyst, and grist for groups.

Time spent on that feature is time not spent on something else, the unfortunate truth is that in that cost of production in relationship to expected return is a major factor, especially if you don't have the luxury of spending infinite time or money on something. Writers gotta eat to.