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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 24 2013, 10:43 PM) *
99.99999% of people DO. They aren't standard building materials for no reason.

Hate to break it to you, but your corner of the world is not necessarily representative for the rest of the planet...

QUOTE
E-sensing lets the tehcnomancer sense electric fields, great. Well, ANY sense can be overwhelmed or "tricked".

Those are standard perception modifiers which apply to every test. Radar however gets anything which degrades Signal ratings on top of that, while E-Sensing is totally immune to such shenanigans.
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_Pax._
post Mar 25 2013, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 24 2013, 07:22 PM) *
Hate to break it to you, but your corner of the world is not necessarily representative for the rest of the planet...

Hate to break it to you, but the default setting of the game, Seattle, is part of "my" corner of the world.

QUOTE
Those are standard perception modifiers which apply to every test. Radar however gets anything which degrades Signal ratings on top of that, while E-Sensing is totally immune to such shenanigans.

Quote where it explicitly says E-sensing is "totally immune" to jamming. Chapter and verse: I want page numbers and book name.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, it's not just Technomancers that can get that ability. Changelings can, too - with the "Electrosense" Metagenic quality (10BP / 20 Karma).
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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 25 2013, 01:46 AM) *
Hate to break it to you, but the default setting of the game, Seattle, is part of "my" corner of the world.

...only 60 years in the future, after a couple of world-shaking calamities. Given that the UCAS have even abandoned the prehistoric measurement system of the current USA, they might just have gotten around to learning the art of brick-laying.

QUOTE
Quote where it explicitly says E-sensing is "totally immune" to jamming. Chapter and verse: I want page numbers and book name.

Another hint: Discussing based on a certain premise and the suddenly going "well, now prove to me that this premise is valid" when the discussion does not go in your favor looks rather like a red herring.

But anyway, the range of E-Sensing is based on the TM's Resonance and not Signal, jamming and Wifi-negation techniques do not affect Resonance, ergo E-Sensing does not care about jamming. And in case you want to try an even cheaper trick and claim that the books do not explicitly state "E-Sensing is unaffected by jammers": Prove that radar is unaffected by Counterspelling.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 25 2013, 01:34 AM
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The more I think about it, the more I don't like this "Limit" idea that's being added. Roll poorly? Edge. Roll well? Edge. Now I'm being punished for rolling well, as well as punished for rolling poorly. Edge Edge Edge. It's becoming the must-have-at-all-costs stat, beyond what it already is.

Plus I just kind of don't like the limit on hits mechanic, it seems to get in the way of the sheer excitement of rolling 7 hits on 8 dice. "Oh sorry, your gun's only got an Accuracy of 4". Well frack.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2013, 01:44 AM
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Tell me again why Technos should be allowed to have perfect vision?
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_Pax._
post Mar 25 2013, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 24 2013, 07:59 PM) *
...only 60 years in the future, [...]

You're right, only sixty years. Whereas we've been building "stick-frame" houses here for over two centuries.

The "new" stuff now, is aluminum framing, covered in drywall. The drywall itself is evolving too; in SR terms, I can see it being a plastic panel, or a biofiber mat perhaps. But the technology behind buildings is going to move forward here, not backward - which is just what going to "22cm brick" would be. Even especially-thick concrete is becoming more and more a "crude thing of the past" (outside certain military applications), and that's today ... without the advances in materials science we know to be part of Shadowrun's setting.

QUOTE
Another hint: Discussing based on a certain premise and the suddenly going "well, now prove to me that this premise is valid" when the discussion does not go in your favor looks rather like a red herring.

But anyway, the range of E-Sensing is based on the TM's Resonance and not Signal, jamming and Wifi-negation techniques do not affect Resonance, ergo E-Sensing does not care about jamming. And in case you want to try an even cheaper trick and claim that the books do not explicitly state "E-Sensing is unaffected by jammers": Prove that radar is unaffected by Counterspelling.

It may have looked like a red herring, but it's not. I honestly wanted to know if there was an actual, RAW statement that it was immune to "jamming" (which needn't be the "Jamming" rules for Signal-based sensors, by the way).

Patently, there isn't.

So it's not that E-Sensing is unstoppable, it's that a bog-standard Jammer unit probably won't do much to it ... and/or, the rules don't cover how to degrade that sensory capability.

But I say again: E-sensing should be at least as susceptible to disruption, interruption, overwhelming, etc, as any other sense. Fog limits vision distances - even though eyesight doesn't have a "Signal rating" for the fog to "jam". There is, despite your protests to the contrary, absolutely no reason there can't be a parallel effect for E-sensing. Indeed, I would generally posit that most urban environments are so littered with things for E-sensing to pick up, that a Technomancer trying to pick out smaller, more subtle things - like, the bioelectric field of a person - would definitely qualify for some sort of "distracted" penalty, just like (for example) trying to eavesdrop in a busy nightclub.

Woul that I coudl be more specific, but alas, those books remain on the old computer's HDD, and will for a few days more.
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_Pax._
post Mar 25 2013, 02:08 AM
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[.... stupid double-post ...]
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phlapjack77
post Mar 25 2013, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 25 2013, 10:07 AM) *
But I say again: E-sensing should be at least as susceptible to disruption, interruption, overwhelming, etc, as any other sense. Fog limits vision distances - even though eyesight doesn't have a "Signal rating" for the fog to "jam". There is, despite your protests to the contrary, absolutely no reason there can't be a parallel effect for E-sensing. Indeed, I would generally posit that most urban environments are so littered with things for E-sensing to pick up, that a Technomancer trying to pick out smaller, more subtle things - like, the bioelectric field of a person - would definitely qualify for some sort of "distracted" penalty, just like (for example) trying to eavesdrop in a busy nightclub.

This sort of makes sense, I would probably think about using it as a house rule...but now you've gone and house-ruled things. When people say E-sensing isn't affected by jamming, they're talking about the rules. By the rules, jamming affects Signal, which E-sensing doesn't use. There are no visibility or other modifiers table that includes E-Sensing. The rules for E-sensing never mention modifiers.

You're talking about altering the rules. Which is ok, necessary even sometimes, but it's not the rules, the rules that other people are actually talking about..
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2013, 02:26 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 24 2013, 09:22 PM) *
There are no visibility or other modifiers table that includes E-Sensing


Ergo, E-Sensing is stupid and incomplete and rife with problems.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 25 2013, 02:33 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2013, 08:26 PM) *
Ergo, E-Sensing is stupid and incomplete and rife with problems.


Or... That is simply your opinion.
Personally, I think E-Sensing is not something I would choose as my first few Echoes as a Technomancer, but I would never say it was broken, incomplete and/or rife with problems.
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_Pax._
post Mar 25 2013, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2013, 10:33 PM) *
Or... That is simply your opinion.
Personally, I think E-Sensing is not something I would choose as my first few Echoes as a Technomancer, but I would never say it was broken, incomplete and/or rife with problems.

I would say that it was sufficiently incomplete that it needed a few tweaks.

Like, say, a list of "typical modifiers and thresholds" for associated Perception checks. Maybe even specifically make them Perception+Resonance, if the rules don't specify otherwise already.

...

Which is to say: I think it needs more polish and refinement.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 25 2013, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2013, 10:26 AM) *
Ergo, E-Sensing is stupid and incomplete and rife with problems.

Yeah, the E-sensing table could be more specific and whatnot, but I like the general concept and most of what they actually have rules for it. Alot of the techno stuff seems not very well thought out or complete. The Trodes Echo...wtf...

*edit*

QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 25 2013, 10:54 AM) *
Like, say, a list of "typical modifiers and thresholds" for associated Perception checks. Maybe even specifically make them Perception+Resonance, if the rules don't specify otherwise already.

Both of those are already rules for E-sensing in Unwired.
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binarywraith
post Mar 25 2013, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 24 2013, 07:34 PM) *
The more I think about it, the more I don't like this "Limit" idea that's being added. Roll poorly? Edge. Roll well? Edge. Now I'm being punished for rolling well, as well as punished for rolling poorly. Edge Edge Edge. It's becoming the must-have-at-all-costs stat, beyond what it already is.

Plus I just kind of don't like the limit on hits mechanic, it seems to get in the way of the sheer excitement of rolling 7 hits on 8 dice. "Oh sorry, your gun's only got an Accuracy of 4". Well frack.


I rather like it as a way to cut out a lot of the min-maxxing bullshit that leads to characters with preposterous dice pools that massively overshadow their attributes.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 25 2013, 03:59 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Mar 25 2013, 11:33 AM) *
I rather like it as a way to cut out a lot of the min-maxxing bullshit that leads to characters with preposterous dice pools that massively overshadow their attributes.

I agree that dice pools can get really high with too many bonuses that overshadow attributes or skills. But I think there's better ways to do this using this new "Limit" system. Limits don't actually fix the problem of preposterous dice pools, but are a kludge system to try to hold all the water in the poorly constructed dam that should be built correctly in the first place.

All limits do is penalize you for rolling well. You have to goldilocks-roll in SR5 now: don't roll too well or too poorly, but roll just right.
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binarywraith
post Mar 25 2013, 04:24 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 24 2013, 09:59 PM) *
I agree that dice pools can get really high with too many bonuses that overshadow attributes or skills. But I think there's better ways to do this using this new "Limit" system. Limits don't actually fix the problem of preposterous dice pools, but are a kludge system to try to hold all the water in the poorly constructed dam that should be built correctly in the first place.

All limits do is penalize you for rolling well. You have to goldilocks-roll in SR5 now: don't roll too well or too poorly, but roll just right.



I think you're selling the character design implications short, although I agree that I don't like seeming to penalize a player for rolling well. The thing I -like- is that this is a disincentive to focusing on making huge dicepools as opposed to increasing a character's basic statistics. If rolling 16 dice on a test isn't going to be advantageous, then the emphasis goes to spending that karma in other ways.

This may not be the best way of doing it, but the only other effective one I can think of offhand would be hard dicepool caps.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2013, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2013, 09:33 PM) *
Or... That is simply your opinion.
Personally, I think E-Sensing is not something I would choose as my first few Echoes as a Technomancer, but I would never say it was broken, incomplete and/or rife with problems.


"It's less good than some other powers" isn't really saying much.
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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Shinxy @ Mar 24 2013, 11:29 PM) *
Reaction + Intuition is now a universal defense against all attacks, even ranged.

Follow-up: I assume that this is the full defense pool for ranged attacks, because otherwise firefights just reverted to line tactics...
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Shinxy
post Mar 25 2013, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 25 2013, 10:20 AM) *
Follow-up: I assume that this is the full defense pool for ranged attacks, because otherwise firefights just reverted to line tactics...


Nope. All defense now uses Reaction + Intuition. Full defense adds something else, I can't recall what though since none of our players used it, only the mooks we were fighting, and the Catalyst rep sped through that part pretty quickly.
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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Shinxy @ Mar 25 2013, 03:47 PM) *
Nope. All defense now uses Reaction + Intuition. Full defense adds something else, I can't recall what though since none of our players used it, only the mooks we were fighting, and the Catalyst rep sped through that part pretty quickly.

In that case, I declare the combat system officially fucked. Consider this little table:
CODE
DP    Chance of rolling 4+ hits
04    0,012345679
05    0,04526749
06    0,100137174
07    0,173296754
08    0,258649596
09    0,349692628
10    0,44073566
11    0,52744331
12    0,606925322
13    0,677575999
14    0,738806586
15    0,790759812
16    0,834054166
17    0,869577739
18    0,898334917
19    0,92134066
20    0,939553539


If the defender has REA + INT 11, 53% of the time the attack fails irrespectively of what the attacker rolled, since his Accuracy limit makes it impossible to roll more hits than the defender. The attacker may opt to spend edge, sure, at which point the defender simply does the same or goes on full defense.
If those numbers stand, everybody needs to bring a sniper rifle into close-quarters shootouts -- whereas snipers do not really need sniper rifles, because an unaware defender does not roll defense and therefore any weapon with Accuracy 1 is sufficient to hit.

Playtesting MY ASS
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 25 2013, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 24 2013, 09:43 PM) *
"It's less good than some other powers" isn't really saying much.


Never said it was less good, just that My Technomancers tend to have other priorities is all...
If I actually had a concept where E-Sensing was important, I would likely take it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Larsine
post Mar 25 2013, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 25 2013, 04:23 PM) *
Playtesting MY ASS

You are assuming a lot, but I'm under NDA.
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redwulfe
post Mar 25 2013, 05:06 PM
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I think that this is really making some assumptions. please correct if I am wrong.

That makes a good question for the ones who played the play-test.

Did the limit apply before or after the opposed roll subtracted hits? also, was defense an opposed roll? I am assuming yes, but thought I would ask.

Also how did armor come into play? Basically was it I roll to hit and you oppose with Reaction+Intuition, then net hits add to a DV, then you roll bod Plus armor to resist that, or something else?

Thanks,
Red
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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 25 2013, 03:07 AM) *
There is, despite your protests to the contrary, absolutely no reason there can't be a parallel effect for E-sensing.

If the writers had wanted E-Sensing to be vulnerable to jamming, they would have based its range on Signal (which TMs have already) and/or mentioned it explicitly (like with the radar sensors).
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 25 2013, 05:52 PM
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It was a limited short demo of a book that's not out yet, in a convention setting. I think it's not going too far out on a limb here, to say the guy giving the demo wasn't using 'all' of the rules, but just a bit of it to run the demo. When the guy is saying things like "For the purpose of this playtest all firearm accuracy is 4" Indicates that it's not always 4 and the rules are being simplified for quick demo play.

Gotta wait for the book to come out to flip out guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Sengir
post Mar 25 2013, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (Larsine @ Mar 25 2013, 05:31 PM) *
You are assuming a lot, but I'm under NDA.

Well, I am assuming that CGL would not intentionally mar the first public appearance of a new product by using numbers which have previously been tested and found ridiculous...
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