Just write 2d6, really easy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Or 2d6+7 (or something like that) for initiative.

Bye
Thanee

I'm one of those GMs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not to drag this off topic - and of course Aria can do whatever she likes, since it his her game - but Fling is not supposed to be a substitute for Missile Mastery. Fling simply allows the caster to use magic to throw something instead of his arm. Missile Mastery means that the Adept is so skilled that he can turn anything into a weapon, by being so precise with his throws. (He can use playing cards to slice open arteries, a coin to go through the eye socket, a baby's rattle to crush a larynx, etc). HUGE difference. Even with that ability, in both 3rd and 4th editions, Missile Mastery only allows the Adept to throw an improvised weapon (playing cards are specifically mentioned) at Strength/2 (Power in 3rd, DV in 4th).

Fling does not allow someone to turn something that is not a weapon (or large enough to be one - like a rock, or a tv, or something like that) INTO a weapon. I could make a troll with a strength of like 14 - and if he throws a playing card at you, it isn't going to do any damage. Fling is the same - it simply generates kinetic energy to hurl something - which, don't get me wrong, is useful. Imagine the surprise on someone's face when a wimpy mage with a strength of 1 hurls a knife at you with the power of a body builder. But it doesn't allow you to turn something like a playing card or a marshmallow into a weapon.

That kinda makes it a bit pants if thats the case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Looks like i might have to use the furniture in the fight >.<

Well, it definitely isn't as cool as the Gambit idea, unfortunately.

And I don't want to rain on your parade - especially as you are on my side in this fight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) - but as far as the furniture, it might be hard to find one you can pick up and throw - since even if you cast it at Force 12 you can only pick up something weighing 12 kilos or less - and that is only if you cast it at Force 12 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I still can't register at invisible castle. I'll do some rolls later anyway but I'm trying to find a substitute.

PS: I don't have much time to post on weekends, but I'll try to post something quick so you guys don't have to wait for me.

That's total drek, because you simply cannot use a playing card to do anything more than nick someone - the physics simply do not work that way. I don't care how skilled and precise you are at throwing things, a slip of hard paper or a plastic baby rattle is not going to slice open vital arteries or crush an armored troll's larynx. Both objects are simply too flimsy to deliver any damaging amount of force. Even if you shoot them out of a compressed air cannon, or fling them with a mechanical arm that far exceeds the capabilities of a human arm, or whatever other method you can think of to accelerate them to superhumanly high speeds with lots of kinetic energy behind them, when they strike the target they will simply destroy themselves on whatever they hit, or glance off entirely, imparting only a minor amount of energy and causing superficial damage at best.

Thus, Missile Mastery clearly doesn't simply impart kinetic energy - it also somehow changes physics, such that a weak and non-damaging item can, in fact, become a lethal missile.

Now, a coin would work either way, because it is dense enough that it is effectively a bullet with poor flight characteristics. But when Missile Mastery allows you to use such flimsy things as playing cards, platic baby rattles, and marshmallows to deal the kind of damage that an actual bullet inflicts, then it's no longer a matter of physics, it's a matter of ~magic!~ and the fact that magical attacks don't have to follow the rules of physics. Which they quite often clearly do not, in the case of Missile Mastery.

As for the DV? Did you miss the fact that SR5 did away with STR/2 as the base calculation for melee and thrown damage? Improvised Weapons in 3E and 4E both derived their damage the same way as all other human-powered weapons, with STR/2 being the universal baseline. In SR5, the base value has been scaled up to straight STR for Melee and Thrown weapons, as part of the larger damage rebalancing.

Missile Mastery has never been any weaker than normal thrown attacks for a specific edition. Quite the opposite, in fact, because you actually can't use an item like a playing card as an improvised weapon without Missile Mastery - such items don't receive a damage code at all unless thrown by an adept with the power.


I will concede that the mechanics of the spell are stated to mirror those of a "normal Ranged Combat Test" with Magic serving to replace Strength.

However, I'm noting now, in examining the rules for an argument I was going to make, that the Missile Mastery power is not currently present in 5E, and will presumably have to return in a splat book. So in effect, the whole killing-with-marshmallows problem is currently moot in the SR5.

I was going to argue from the point of ~magic!~ being the main force behind allowing Missile Mastery to work, and that by extension it should also be the force behind Fling being able to work. And there's further evidence of this sort of behavior in the Poltergeist spell, which has returned in SR5 in much the same form it had in 4E. It lifts objects in an area that weigh 1 kilogram or less and swings them through the air at random, inflicting at least 2S to anyone in the region. The spell wording specifically mentions being able to do more damage if the affected region is especially cluttered, or if the clutter itself is actually dangerous, like broken glass or nails. It does not, however, say anything about reducing damage for flimsy debris - all it mentions is that an area lacking debris merely produces a spooky noise. So if you use it in an empty room it does nothing, but if you use it in a room full of mice or pies, it does damage.

I was also going to ask what you would do in a situation where a Mystic Adept who has Missile Mastery used Fling to throw a playing card.

And even more than all of that, I was going to argue from the point of the Rule of Cool - using magic to hurl Throwing Cards as weapons is just cool, even if it defies physics.

But the point is moot, since Missile Mastery isn't in 5E yet.

So I guess the solution, for the moment, is for Gambit-style character to simply use special metal playing cards, more akin to oversized razor blades or throwing knives than actual paper cards. Ooh! Idea! Cards made of a special shear-thickening material that are flexible at rest, but when suddenly imparted with kinetic energy they go rigid! Hence, you can shuffle and bend and otherwise flex them when at rest, but when you throw them with all your might they harden into thin "blades" for a second or two - long enough to hit and damage a target.

~Umi

I am with you - Missile Mastery in both 3rd and 4th clearly uses Magic to bend the laws of physics - to make things that normally are not lethal become so.

Fling, on the other hand, does not make non-lethal objects lethal. It is magic and what that magic does is allow you to hurl something across the room with your mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Yep.



Yep - which is why Fling doesn't allow him to use playing cards to hurt someone.



That is an interesting question. Obviously you have one of two ways to go. Either a) They don't stack, or b) You get both - so hypothetically if Missile Mastery works in 5e as Strength +1 DV for actual thrown weapons and Strength/2
for non-damaging weapons such as cards, then if I have a Magic of 6 and Missile Mastery, and I Fling a playing card I would do 3DV, while Flinging a knife would be 8DV (normal knife is Strength +1DV and Missile Mastery would be another +1DV). Personally I would lean toward B.



And I agree - it is cool - which is why Missile Mastery exists - (or will exist) - not Fling. Otherwise you are allowing a 5 karma spell to duplicate the effect of a 1 PP power.



Correct (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



The metal playing cards would work - and the shear-thickening material sounds cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok so how much would it cost in nuyen to have the funk material cards do we reckon? That is dependent on a GM rueling on how fling works (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh and just to stir the pot some more: can touch spells be delivered with a kick?

You're still going on about STR/2. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If/when Missile Mastery hits SR5, it's going to use the new SR5 damage codes, meaning even Improvised Throwing Weapons will deal straight (Strength) damage. The only reason it got divided by two in 4E was because all melee and thrown damage used half strength. If they didn't make it full (Strength) in SR5, they'd be massively nerfing the ability for no apparant reason.

~Umi

YMMV, but as a GM I'd say dilatant/shear thickening playing cards would be a custom specialty item.

I'd take the price of a normal Throwing Knife and jack it up considerably - say, charge 400% or 500% of the base price? So each individual card would cost 100 to 125 nuyen? That'd make a full deck cost 5200 to 6500 nuyen, but to be fair, that's 52 knives. A more reasonable number of cards - let's say 8 to 10 - would only cost 1000 nuyen, which is the price of a katana. Seems reasonable to me. In fact, I almost feel it's still too cheap, but I could live with this price.

I'd also bump the availability to 12F, which matches a monofilament whip. Still available at chargen, but their nature as disguised weapons makes them a legal no-no.

Also, yes, Touch spells can be delivered with any direct contact between two auras. You can cast a touch spell by licking someone if you want, or by having them slap your rump and call you a dirty little tramp, if you're into that sort of thing.

~Umi

Sorry - I played 3e for so long that my default for old editions is that rather than 4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In 3e the power of a thrown weapon was = Strength.
The power of an item that normally could not damage anyone - such as a playing card with Missile Mastery was = Strength/2, and with a normal weapon with Missile Mastery was Strength +2

In 4e you are of course correct, a normal thrown weapon was Strength/2, and so was the playing card with Missile Mastery (and making it Strength/4 for 4e would make it useless), while a normal weapon with Missile Mastery was DV +1.

I am of course speculating - but I am thinking that now that they have doubled (or restored back to 3rd edition standards) the damage value for actual weapons, they can reduce things like marshmallows and pieces of tin foil to Strength/2 - but we will have to wait until the 5e version of Magic in the Shadows/Street Magic comes out to see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) .

I agree with Umi's pricing - sounds quite reasonable.

With the touch spell being delivered with a kick, that's open to debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let me be clear - Umi is completely correct - any contact can deliver the Touch spell. But, if I understand you correctly, are you asking can you make a unarmed combat test to actually kick the opponent and do damage, and then on top of that cast a spell and do more damage to them.

Some say yes, some say no. For me, I lean toward "No" for several reasons:

1) Making a melee attack is a complex action - casting a spell is a a complex action. In this particular case, a Touch spell requires a melee attack to complete the casting (and you get a bonus to make the attack because it is easier to touch someone) - but you shouldn't get a "free" extra melee attack out of it.
2) The new 5e rules put special emphasis on only one "attack" action per Action Phase - this clearly gives you two.
3) I think it is unbalancing.

Again - that is just me, I will (along with any other ruling) happily go along with whatever Aria decides to use in this game.

If you're casting a Touch spell, you're making a Touch Attack, which always deals no damage, but which applies secondary effects like Spells and Contact Drugs.

(In theory it should also apply things like Shock Gloves, since those require a Touch Attack, but doubling up on multiple sources of damage from a single strike is immensely problematic. If everything stacked, you could layer a Knockout Spell, Shock Gloves, and a DMSO/Narcoject mixture for a hit that pretty much guarantees unconsciousness on even just a grazing blow.)

You do get a +2 to your dice pool when making a Touch Attack. Using your feet to kick won't normally have any effect different than an ordinary "punching" Unarmed Attack. In SR4, Martial Arts allowed you to use a Kick Attack maneuver which gives a bonus of 1 to Reach, but even if that gets brought back in 5E it won't help with a touch attack anymore, because Reach now only applies a defense modifier for whoever has more of it, rather than the option of either bonus attack dice or bonus defense dice.

~Umi

Ok cool so a kick can deliver a touch spell that's all i wanted. It's more for the look of the thing than anything (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hmm you could hide the fancy cards inside a deck of cards couldn't you? Mayeb have special ridges down the sides so you can feel where they are but just looking at them you'd never know. Sounds good to me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@ Game Face:
As I am going to be away for most of today, I just want to list out what my next actions and rolls are going to be, so if Aria is around I can get a response and factor it into my next IC post.

This is all dependent on no threatening devices being within range yet:

First, Hatter will move to a secure spot, probably tucked under the bar or something, and drop into VR after letting everyone know he is going under. There, he will log into the Hotel's host (did checking in at the lobby get him basic admission into the host?) running silently and search for schematics of the building (should be easily accessible to the public, fire exits and codes and all) and overlay this floor on the HUDs of those connected to him. After that, Matrix Perception to find the controls for the security cameras in the halls and elevators and to begin searching for forthcoming opposition.

Hack on the Fly to get a mark on the Host (if needed and I don't have one already):
Hacking 6 + Logic 8 + VR 2 - Silent 2 [Sleaze 7]
Hack on the Fly (14d6.hits(5)=2)
Edge to reroll failures (again, if the roll is even needed in the first place):
Edge Reroll (12d6.hits(5)=4)

Next, Matrix Perception to find controls for cameras:
Computers 5 + Intuition 5 + VR 2 - Silent 2 [Data Processing 6]
Matrix Perception (10d6.hits(5)=5)
*Hits for if it is protected and if it has a data bomb on it

Orion is mostly wanting to roll a Perception(Smell) test, to see if he can sense smoke, and if the hits are good enough, about how bad it is.


Perception(Scent) roll:
15d6.hits(5) → [1,2,4,2,1,3,4,6,6,5,1,3,4,2,2] = (3)

Apologies for Dog being absent for awhile, I'm posting up now...

Man, you'd think weekends would see more posts in these campaigns, but apparantly not...

~Umi

Seems most posters are doing so from work, and can't post on the weekends cuz they're not stuck in front of a computer all day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I write from home myself, but at this point I'm pretty set up with what Orion's doing-but besides his Perception check that's about all that is going until the next step happens.

I can say he's turning on his adept powers, as shown with the killing hands bit.

Exactly - I think we are (or at least I am) done until I get the results of my perception check and find out what happens next from Aria

@Game Face



I never, ever, have time to post when I'm away from work. I barely see my wife and my baby girl on weekdays so weekends are kind of sacred.

Alright, I'm posting some rolls.

Good news-Defense rolls never have Limits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yay! I only had one roll over 7 but I can always use gymnastics to add some more dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

@Aria
rolls posted on first page of OOC on Dog's char sheet

@AlDaRoN
on your post where you have your rolls, you can turn off smilies to keep from getting ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 's all over the place (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)