I know what he meant but he said "Period".

Not really. Specialisation is still rewarded. Just not unfairly. Sorry, but give everybody a bunch of Karma and they will start broading the character. The System espacially BP in Shadowrun 4 produced characters who would tend to die on their own, because it is increadible efficient.

And thats not true either. Actually the opposite is true. If specialisation does cost, the specialist is worth something. Opposed to everybody is the specialist. And exactly the second thing happend in Shadowrun. Yeah, you are the sammurai but guess what, everone has one of their weapon skills at 4-6, so....


The point is, if a system produces reasonable characters, you actually do not need to worry about balance that much. Thats mostly taking care of itself.
If this ain't the case, you will always have big issues, and try to close one hole after another. Mostly any kind of magic then breaks the whole thing, because of the "I can substitude magic for everything, if I am only good enough". Only "class" systems tend to be kind of resistant against that. Thats why this ability to specialize so much in SR (Karma or BP or Priority) was and is bad.
You tend to get "sepcialists" in different areas. As the hacker, who is also a great shot unless you give him anything else than his "pistol, smg, longarm", then he won't hit shit.

This is very true - you had a choice, but that choice had actual costs associated with it.

Why are you calculating them constantly.
I have a cheat sheet that tells you exactly how much each level costs, all the way to 10 Attribute and 6 Skill/Group.
Done with a glance. It is basic math, after all.

Even my most complicated builds took less than an hour (and most were done in 20-30 minutes), and again, that is mostly gear, since that is the most fiddly part of CHargen, and you do not get away from that in any edition of the game.

My experience is the direct opposite of yours. With Karma Gen, there is less need to Min-Max, and it is the rare character that is abused to hell and back, rather than the norm of BP (or likely Priority in SR5). I know in SR2/3 (and in SR5, too), Priority encourages Min-Max, as many of the threads here will attest to (including this very one).

You're really going to tell me that my experiences at my table that tell me what works, and what doesn't work, for me and my table, is somehow wrong?

Look, I'm not saying Karma character creation is "bad" or anything, but it doesn't tend to produce the types of character stat blocks that works best for me and my table. This is my opinion. If you don't like it, that's not my problem.
Value judgment is valueless. What you opine as "unfairly" is different from everyone else, and stating it as a fact rather than an opinion does not magically convert it into a fact.
And this is explicitly not what is wanted at my table during character creation. This, again, at my table, happens in play as an outcome of the lessons learned in play. Which is why we use karma... in play, and not during character creation.
While I obviously don't encourage team members who are too stupid to live, being in situations where characters "who would tend to die on their own" is a feature for us, not a bug! It forces team members to rely on each other.
You seriously fail at reading comprehension. The point wasn't about specialization. It's that karma gen tends to create stat blocks for characters that are so generic to the point of, in my opinion, being divorced from who the character is or what his/her role is. This just my opinion. You are entitled to a different opinion, but you are not entitled to tell me my opinion is wrong.
This is a cognitive bias: there is a human tendency to perceive the value of something being more, based solely upon how much effort or cost it took to achieve whatever it is. Just because forcing specialists to pay more for specializing, does not change the inherit worth of specializing. You perceive specialists being worth more, specifically because it costs more in karma to specialize. The worth of a specialist is the exact same, no matter what it cost to get there.
Knock it off with the value judgments. You are implying that reasonable must mean the characters are "realistic" in some manner. As I explained earlier in the thread, I don't give a shit about realism, especially in a game about magic, virtual realities, and living in a grim future where people shoot other people directly in the face for the money to pay the rent. I have a cinematic aesthetic, and karma gen doesn't produce "reasonable" characters for what I want out of my game. You want something else, obviously, so what's reasonable to one, is obviously going to be different to the other... but again, stating your opinion as fact doesn't magically make my opinion wrong.
I never worry about player characters ever being out of balance, because as a GM, I have a free hand to introduce whatever challenges to the PCs I can dream up. The system of how PCs are created, similar to their worth as above, has nothing to do with balance other than setting an initial expected power level. And when that expected power level is challenged, the response isn't to yell "bad power gamer, bad!," it's to up the scope, scale, and consequences of the story to fit with the goals of the player. If the player wants to play a Teachdaire or Sapphire clone, filled with multiple exploding Seattles and epic stories at a world shaking power level, the response should be either how can we compromise visions to make everyone happy, or if that style of gameplay is a deal breaker for you, you tell them that, and you try to find a different corner of the Shadowrun universe that everyone at the table can explore.
The close to every loophole or system breaker ever: have a conversation. If you're too busy trying to make rules to listen to your players, it's not the player's fault for not being able to read your mind on how you have interpreted that rule.

The benefit of karma generation is that it allows for characters to be made with the same system used for in-game progression. There are no inefficient choices since each karma spent is 1:1 to the karma you could earn in play. In my opinion this creates a lot of diversity in characters, who have non minmaxed stats and abilities. Whether you consider that a good or bad thing is entirely opinion, but I prefer it. It does make it nearly impossible to play a melee monster troll or Ork, so it's not a perfect system either.

BP and Priority encourage minmaxing since there are only so many static points available and raising stats to maximum costs the same per point as raising them to middling ratings. That's not to say you can't make your character however you want and disregard the metanumbers of the system, but in terms of best bang for your buck it is in your best interest to minmax as much as possible as has been discussed since the priority points are not equal to in game karma XP.

<Edit>
Sorry, posted to the wrong topic

Hey there everyone, I'm hijacking this thread to ask a question: What is the best character-generation legal soak pool it's possible to get in 5th edition? No other factors are in play, but if you're a mage using the armour spell then you're getting average hits (1/3 dice pool) for this.

Currently I'm thinking that 42 dice is getting pretty close on the upper limit [10 body (troll) + 1 toughness (quality) + 1 thick skin (troll) + 12 armour (armour jacket) + 2 helmet (helmet) + 6 shield (riot shield) + 4 dermal plating (dermal plating) + 6 bone lacing (2nd hand titanium bone lacing)], and that'll set you back 4.875 essence already (tried with 5 points of 2nd hand dermal and it brought it up to 6.25 essence).

Can anyone do better?

Well for racial mods the karma cost always should be pre-racial mods. You are already paying for the race there shouldn't be a double tax. In the case of karma gen, don't do what 4e did in one of the versions and remove a base cost of being a troll. If I buy muscle aug 4 for my 1 strength human it does not cost me 30 karma to improve his strength, it only costs 10. Racial mods should work the same way.

Well the cheese method would be to add cyber feet or whatever with armo mods, most GMs would require the full limb though so I don't think its valid. Full limb replacemnt might beat it. 4 limbs x 2 armor=8, I think you can still take used titanium skeleton depsite missing 4 limbs for 6, troll bod 10, toughness, thick skin troll another 2, armor jacket, riot shiel 18. 8+6+10+2+18=44 Soon after char gen you can boost that by another 4 when you increase the cyber armor to 3 per limb. If you can ever save up for beta cyber skull you can get another 3 for a total of 51. If you are willing to totally forget the other enhancements for the limbs and maybe just have 1 good arm you can probably make them alpha and get the skull aat char gen.

true, I did overlook cyberlimbs as an option. If you were actually going to play the character then throwing priorities A and B into metatype and resources as opposed to resources D for the other build might make it less attractive, but that wasn't a requirement for the challenge.

So, we have 44 dice right out of the box. can anyone do better?

What if you went Mystic Adept?

Bear Mentor Spirit +2, Troll +10, tough skin +1, Mystic Armor +6, Armor Spell +6, Ares Victory Big Game Hunter +14, + 2 helmet (helmet) + 6 shield (riot shield), Toughness Quality +1, Attribute Boost Body (max bonus +4) - that's 52 dice.

I think you'd be pushing it to afford 18 dice in spellcasting (6 hits on the armour spell) plus a body 10 troll. Might be possible, but you'd be really pushing it. Also not sure that anything from the run and gun previews is really fair as technically the book isn't out yet and the previews are subject to last minute changes.

awesome. You can still take titanium bone lacing, you'd lose 2 in mystic armor but gain 3 body/3armor netting 4. And you can do it with petty low resources. That would be 56, and 48 without the add on armors like riot shields that are hard to have with you at all times. Hell if you can scrounge the 14 karma at char gen you can have a 11 body.If yo went improved atribute body 2 and attribute boost you have a much more solid chance of maxing at +4 aug value.

True though its doable. The problem with this build will be the massive dump statting when you max body and still have okay drain stats. Still 6 spell casting + 6 magic +2 specialization manipulation spells and a spell focus manipulation spells gets you close.

I'd consider taking alchemy on the character though, with a 10+body and 4+willower he'd heal stun drain up really quick so he can probably get more preparations ready than most other casters.

Well there's nothing short of an anti-tank missile that's going to deal physical damage to you so overcasting is a fairly viable strategy. After all, anything that does hurt you is going to be stun so taking some physical from your spells isn't going to drop you any quicker in a fight. your only weakness will be the direct spells that everyone says are so nerfed...

Hmmm...
metatype A
Attributes B
Magic C
Resources D
Skills E

Focus skills on Spellcasting and Counterspelling.
Focus attributes on Body 10, Willpower 5, logic 4.
Get a spellcasting focus for manipulation and a sustaining focus of the same type.
At this point you're nigh unkillable. Throw on quick healer and high pain tolerance for giggles.

Geek this mage first, bitches!

Well, for one thing, someone's got to calculate the cheat sheets. Which is even more time spent. It might be worth it if I hadn't kicked karmagen out of use after trying it a few times, but that's how it goes.

No one, and I mean NO ONE I know, has ever completed a SR4.5 character in under an hour. I've known many people who claim to have done so, but have failed when actually timed under scientific conditions. This includes a line developer. Most of the characters I've seen have taken several hours, and some of mine have taken days.

Your experience is at your table, which we have ascertained is either a statistical anomaly or partly fictional. My experience is based on many different environments, including con play, home games, and official Missions events. I also deliberately handed both systems to munchkins to see what they could do. Based on that, I can safely say that the harder you try to force someone to not min/max, the harder they will resist. As a result, the fiddlier system will be abused more, especially if it's designed to stop min/maxing. Some of the worst abuses I've seen in 4.5 were done via karmagen.

Really this shouldn't come as a surprise. Karmagen really only tried to balance skills and attributes. In 4.5, those are only a small part of your dice pool. You can still pile on the modifiers from other sources. Only difference is now, you have a wider base to draw off of, making it easier to shore up low dump stats.

Single Task that takes less than 20 minutes all told, and then everyone benefits.


Love how you call me a liar. But since I have absolutely no need to min-max, and tend to play mostly base line humans, with mostly average stats to start out (1/2 3's and 1/2 4's), all the heavy lifting is already completed. From there, it is a simple matter of adjustment of stats and allocation of skills. AS I said, easy peasy.

Yes, Sometimes Gear takes a long time, but not normally for me, since I already have an idea of what I want going in. It is a bit fiddly, but 30 Minutes is probably average for me. I have done some in as little as 15-20 minutes (gangers, with almost no money to spend, duh!).

Yes, SOME builds take me longer, but not because of the Karma Allocation. This is generally due to me wanting to figure out complete backstories to complement the character. I have done that maybe 6 times out of 50, on characters that I intend to be long-term characters. We obviously have very different approaches to character building... Me personally? I generally have a dozen characters floating around in my head at any given time, for various gaming systems. When I get the urge to actually create one, it is already done in my head (for the most part) and all that is left is the allocations. But for me, this is mostly background noise and requires no concentration or effort on my part, and so when it comes time to character gen, all I need to actually do is to put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) and make him "real," which takes no time at all. *shrug*


Again with the insinuations. Please stop. Not everyone likes min-max monstrosity games, why is that so hard to believe. Most of us passed through that phase of our gaming years and years ago. we tend to prefer other styles these days (though we do occasionally go back to the Mohawk from time to time). But what you are essentially saying is that you play with unreasonable people who prefer to pursue their own enjoyment over that of any one else. Got it. Some tables are indeed like that. Not a fan, myself, but they do exist. *shrug*

Yes, you can abuse the system. I can munchkin with the best of them, in multiple systems, if I choose to do so. My question is why you would want to do so. I see no inherent benefit to it, and a lot of drawbacks. *shrug*



And I will say it again... Just because you CAN pile on bonuses until you are blue in the face, it does not mean that you SHOULD do so. My most balanced characters are from Karma Gen and SR4A. It is in the Priority and BP gen systems that I find the most unrealistic and unbalanced characters in play. Mainly because they encourage (or force, if some prefer) the player to hyper specialize in order to compete (which then forces the GM to do so, which starts the cycle all over again). That is a trap to which I just say no too. *shrug*

Same reason we do everything - because we can.

Just because you can does not mean you should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

My experience is, all builds take longer. With our without karma calculations, although that does increase the time.

Just because you "choose" to not abuse the system, doesn't mean it's not prone to abuse. The point is, karmagen is more abuseable than the base 4.5 system, which is already munchkin-heaven. I honestly think your point is agreeing with me.

Did you just seriously group-attack the hundreds of players I've gamed with over the years?

Don't take this as an insult, but... how would you know? You admit that you don't try to break the system, so how do you know which is more breakable?

Honestly, my experience across many systems is, the harder you try to restrict min/maxers, the more they feel the need to compete. They'll find a way. Usually, the best way to deal is to be fairly liberal with them, so they don't feel like they need to squeeze the most value out of every last point.

That's a rather unhelpful statement.

Look, karmagen is much more abuseable than BP, especially if you're playing an Awakened character. The ability to mass-Initiate can create an insane build. That's just a concrete fact. Do you have any concrete evidence as to how Karmagen is less abuseable? Don't say "because it encourages X", because what it encourages and what it produces are two separate things. And don't say "Because you shouldn't", because that's a red herring.

I agree with a lot of your points here, but please don't associate mohawk with min/max monstrosities. Min-maxing has nothing to do with the style of game you play. If anything I'd expect more in trench coat games as the more serious take makes the games more challenging and might require more to get by. So you might bet players who don't normally min/max to do so.

Interesting...
Would you still think a karmagen system would be more abusable if it had the same starting restrictions as any other build system? If you have a fair assessment of racial and qualities costs in karma as well as a fair assessment of karma for cash then restrict the ability to initiate/submerge (can you even use the starting karma in 5th to initiate?) a karmagen system is more balanced that any other system.

It all comes down to paying for what you want. You can still min/max in a karmagen system by having a dump stat or two so you can raise another one up but you know that every 500 karma character is 500 karma not 400 for selecting skills or attributes D or the disconnect with build points. Every concept is the same overall "value" even if the build is "subpar." That is something you cannot get in a priority or build point system.

I have been playing shadowrun since 2nd Ed and our group only uses karmagen to the point that I do not even know the build point or priority costs anymore. The most difficult and time consuming part of character creation for me has always been the character concept. The numbers take 30 minutes... the gear takes an hour... I had one concept that took me a year to get right and most of the others took weeks. But I know that when I sit down at the table the person next to me is built on and is using the same costs that I am so 500 karma is 500 karma. (I am pulling 500 karma out of my ass just for a number...)

...because SR has thousands of fiddly options, especially when it comes to gear. If you want to speed up chargen, changing attribute/skill costs is clearly barking up the wrong tree


Oh come on, did you drop out of homeschooling after a year? There's even a table in the BBB for the karma cost of each rank.


And for me, the major argument for karmagen is what Samoth already mentioned: One system for generation and progression.

Technically, karmagen is more abuseable, mainly because the base amount you get for karmagen is more generous than the base amount you get for build points. However...


That has been my experience of karmagen in play. I tend to min-max less with karmagen, not because it is harder to do so (I have fiddled around with builds and numbers, and did one min-maxed character for a PVP game, so I know you can min-max with karmagen), but because, as you said, I don't feel like I need to squeeze the most value out of every point.