Ah no. You can have wireless on and operate in hidden mode which gives you a -2 penalty to matrix actions. On devices that don't perform matrix actions this is not really a problem. The only way you can interact with a hidden device at greater than 100m is if you are familiar with that specific device, but have noise penalties...... and you still have to spot it.



Here's you've just made an assumption about the game world to justify your argument. Why are they all backed up on a host? Why don't they just have it through their own pan with a solid commlink? Why doesn't every platoon or whatever have it's own matrix overwatch? Why, if they are all linked back to a host (which is questionable I think as an option but I digress), is that host of a rating that's particularly vulnerable. Why wouldn't it be rating 10+ and full of Ice and spiders?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're taking elements of the system you don't like (and perhaps, haven't even got a great understanding of) and then applying them to assumed realities of the world based on today's technology.

Why would you bother? Short of having them physically connect a wire to you how can they affect your tech if your wireless is turned off?

I seriously hate wireless, but the absurdist arguments are not coming form his side in this thread. There are a lot of solid reasons the wireless rules suck, sadly none of them are coming up here.

Well, I suppose they could use bullets...
Not sure how throwbacks would help in that case but what the heck.

You follow the clearing procedures for your particular weapon - takes about a second or two to do it on most firearms.

Most weapons do not just "Stop Working" though. You typically end up with a jam on extract, more than anything else (or occasionally a double feed with Automatic weapons, especially of open-bolt design, like an M60). I have had 1 Misfire in the hundreds of thousands of rounds fired over the years. I had a side blowout on a rifle once that effectively destroyed the weapon. I have had individual weapons that were prone to extract jams of one type or another. I have had individual weapons that NEVER had operational issues. The vast majority (almost 100%, save the above blowout issue) of issues encountered, however, were corrected with a quick clearing of the weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's the thing that gets overlooked a great deal in this sort of discussion. Firearms are, at the end of the day, extremely simple machines with very few points of failure. That is by design, as they are intended to be used in field conditions and expected to keep functioning.

And yet Tactical Communications do not use the Matrix to transmit. *shrug*

*Raises Hand*
All SR5 Non-Decker characters will be Non-Wireless capable. Good luck hacking them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed... I cannot even remember the last time I had a weapon malfunction.
My favorite autoloading weapon was a Smith 9mm Pistol. Would cycle entire magazines of empties with no jams. Loved that gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
Of course, My Customized Ruger Super Blackhawk was my one true gun until it was stolen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I'd like to post a positive critique !
After reading Preview #3 and optional Rules , especially RG1
Im extraordinarily Happy
Jay JayJay Hurray (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
One of my main points of critique has been nullified !

Thanks to whomever is responsible

with a Happy Dance
Medicineman

I think others have covered it, but it depends on the malfunction. The main ones (at least with the M16A2/M4) were the standard misfeed and the "pop and no kick" misfire.

Standard misfeed was fixed by basically putting the selector on Safe, drop the magazine, lock the charging handle back, inspect the receiver to make sure a round wasn't stuck in there, then basically return everything back to the way it was. It usually only took a few seconds.

The "pop and no kick" usually meant you had a round hanging out and cooking off in the barrel. The procedure there was basically keep the weapon pointed toward what you wanted to kill and wait, LOL. In the interim, get your knife ready or start fishing out a bayonet (although installing that on a rifle with a hanging round was probably not a great idea, LOL).

All in all, I figured there was a reason they trained us in three or four ways of injuring someone using the WRONG end of the rifle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Worst I've gotten out of my CZs is one stovepipe jam in 1000 rounds, where an underloaded round didn't have quite enough backpressure to fully cycle the slide and left the brass stuck vertically in the ejector port. Easy clear, just manually cycle the slide fully back.

Well, that and the Mosin bolt sticking, but that was entirely because I was opting to clear out the last of the cosmoline by shooting it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

which i'm sure will be just oh so *tremendously* difficult to spot given it has absolutely no dice pool to resist with. unless it's on a host, or your opposition is likewise investing in an expensive cyberdeck, both of which you seem to feel are unlikely. you need to know one thing about it. for example, "it's right over there where a spydrone/scout/etc spotted it".

as to noise penalties, they're not nearly as big of a deal as you think. a datajack gives 1 noise reduction. a signal scrub program gives another 2. the datajack alone gets you to 1 km. the program added in will get you to 10 km. and even if you then go out to 100 km, you are left taking a net -2 penalty (0 against hosts, if they're used). so within 100 km i can interact quite easily with any device that is on the matrix. yes, it's at a penalty. no, that isn't a crippling penalty that will completely prevent me from being able to act. presuming, of course, that there is no further noise reduction gear available in the setting (which seems unlikely; just because we don't have it *yet* doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).


if you don't have a host (or a cyberdeck), they have no meaningful defence. no host means i don't need an expensive piece of hardware to break in (or at least, not very expensive; you still need a deck, but not nearly as high of a rating). a host means i need an expensive piece of hardware to break in, but once i am in i have broken in to *all* of your stuff. if you have cyberdecks for defence, then by buying a single 400k nuyen piece of equipment, i have forced you to buy 400k pieces of equipment for every 4 soldiers (well, 5 if you count the guy with the cyberdeck, who is also an added expense).

and if it's not a huge vulnerability, why are you suggesting that each platoon would have matrix overwatch? if it isn't a threat, then what exactly are you protecting against? if it is threatening enough that now you need to spend the same 400k nuyen on defence (per 4 conventional soldiers, mind you) that you insisted nobody would be willing to spend on offence, then it is threatening enough to be worth spending a few thousand nuyen extra per device to design them to work without needing to connect to the matrix.

unless the cost of designing completely internal cyberware to interact through a cable or even just regular wireless rather than having to be hooked up to the internet exceeds 100,000 nuyen per soldier by a significant margin, someone made a gigantic screwup here. because if it only costs a few thousand nuyen per item to have an internal connection to each other, you can have 100% effective defence for a much lower cost.

now i'm no military genius, but i'm guessing that if company A offers a military-grade product that will cost less than 10% as much to protect, and protects better than what company B offers, company A is going to sell a lot of product and company B is going to be firing a lot of idiot managers and engineers for incompetence.

edit: also, just remembered... it's 3xrating for maximum number of slaves a device can have, so it's really 1 rating 4 cyberdeck per 12 devices... and anything else is completely vulnerable. the hacker will likely also need to cover his own devices, so really we're looking at less than 3 pieces of cyber per person... if they have eyes, a smartgun, and a smartlink on each soldier, then that's 4 soldiers protected per rating 4 cyberdeck... and then the hacker can't have anything that needs protection himself. it's also worth noting that while technomancers are pretty much worse than hackers, even having a technomancer on your side, which does not necessarily cost any money at all, forces your opponent to spend significant amounts of money on matrix overwatch. even having the ability to *hire* someone who has a cyberdeck forces your opponents to spend on matrix overwatch, for that matter... you don't need to spend a cent on offence until hostilities break out to force your opponent into either not using the full capabilities of the gear he bought, or spending big on matrix defence. but hey, i'm sure that won't bother anyone in the military at all.

as to proof of wireless without being on the matrix, one only needs look at some of the wireless bonuses. a smartgun can let you wirelessly do stuff. it also has a wireless bonus that gets added in when it's on the matrix. the microtransceiver has a matrix bonus and literally cannot function on a basic level without being wireless enabled. the datajack's bonus for being on the matrix is one that, if being on the matrix and having wireless enabled are the same thing, would always be available. the detonator cap has the base functionality that you can set it using a radio signal. then it has a special wireless bonus apart from that as well. a bug scanner, which must be able to read wireless signals, gets an extra bonus if it is on the matrix. a jammer, which must be broadcasting wirelessly, gets an extra bonus when it's on the matrix. every grenade launcher has a special ability to use wireless link detonation without a DNI, as does every grenade, if they are connected to the matrix. without the matrix, you need a DNI. if being wireless enabled and being on the matrix are synonymous, how is it that these (and probably other things which i have not listed) which *require* wireless capability to function on the most basic level have a distinct and separate bonus listed for when the device is on the matrix?

Classic Stovepipe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Removing Cosmoline by shooting. Interesting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Jaid,

This whole idea of weapons being bricked in combat in a battlefield situation doesn't work if you just look at the numbers - and lets just assume that noise isn't even a factor for you.

Let's assume you have a decker who wants to brick a soldier's gun. Military Grade hosts are 11-12, and the guns are hooked up to that. We'll do two tests: hacking the gun, and hacking the host.

1) There is no reason for the gun not to run silent. To find that gun, even if you know specifically which gun you are looking for, you make a Computer + Intuition test against the Logic + Sleaze of the Host to resist.

The ratings of that host would be, 12, 13, 14, 15 - and would probably be Firewall, Data Processing, Sleaze and Attack. So you roll your Computer + Intuition - so, let's say you are a PHENOMENAL decker - 13 skill, and 6 Intuition, in hot sim +2, - that is 21 dice. The weapon is rolling 25 dice to resist - and is not restricted by limits. Not very likely that you are going to even be able to FIND the damn icon. But, let's assume you get lucky and do spot it, and now you want to brick it. You roll your Cybercombat of 13, and your Logic of 6, plus hot sim bonus for 20 dice, and it rolls Intuition + Firewall - this time its 27 dice - again, not limited, and any net hits against you now damage your persona icon.

This, btw, is with a decker who has reached the Apex of his training in two different decking skills - and he still, realistically, has no chance.

2) If you go into the host, it is exactly the same issue. Even if you were to assume that the Host itself would not run silent, you still have to put a mark on it. So again, you roll skill + attribute + hot sim of 21 dice, (and if you don't want to be instantly attacked by IC, you would need to have a Hacking skill of 13 as well), and the Host rolls 27 dice to defend. Odds are you aren't getting in, and when you do, the instant you try and do something, you face similar long odds.

Now, the downside to having them all hooked up to a host, is that if you get mark on the host, then it is easy to attack the individual weapons - but one could assume that you could have a couple of spiders in the host just for that eventuality - and there is no limit to the number of weapons that can be hooked up to a single host. Also, lets assume, just for a moment, that you capture a rifle, connect directly to it, and get a mark on it, allowing you to get a mark on the host.

Now, entering the host, you want to brick another rifle. Once you've done so, the Patrol IC would have a chance to see you perform that illegal action. Well, it is now rolling 24 dice to see you - and with that many dice, it is more than likely to spot you doing something wrong, and now it starts launching the 24 dice rolling Black IC.

Also, bricking may not always be the best option available. So, you've tracked down the sniper who is keeping your team pinned and you've got access to his smartlink. You could brick the gun, sure, since that somehow works... or you could screw with his IFF information so he starts taking shots at his teammates instead while jamming his incoming communications. Now rather than just disabling a threat you've redirected it.

Fun and a bit hard on the shoulder. 7.62x54r kicks like a mule. But after 10~ rounds in a few minutes, I had drips coming out of the magazine. A good hard cleaning after that, then wrapping the stocks in black plastic and leaving them on the rear dashboard of a closed car in South Texas summer for a couple days, and I managed to sweat most of it out.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Gotta love the Texas Heat. Don't really miss it all that much, though.

Or, you know, start counter Sniping, since you now know where he is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You realize that you're quoting the ratings equivalent to the Host for a major megacorporate headquarters to defend a squad of grunts in the field, right? Not to mention that due to how slaving works, all anyone needs to do to make all that work useless is get ahold of a single item slaved to that Host and connect to it directly.



That's a few hundred thousand to a couple million nuyen that can be bypassed and then mass bricked by picking off a single scout and stealing anything he's got on that's slaved.

Not just military situations, though that's a good extreme example of how the system is devised around putting strong protection around vulnerabilities rather than simply eliminating vulnerabilities by cutting performance.

Note that any bit of runner/security/military gear, as in anything worth hacking, is going to be a part of the arms race. Very few and desperate people should be running online gear if they're not protected somehow. The juiciest targets -- wired reflexes, smartlinks, and so on -- are all extremely expensive or restricted/forbidden to begin with, and in few conceivable circumstances would go without the protection of a host. Shadowrunners can't rely on that sort of backup and have to use proactive deckers.

See, I see it differently. You can be completely protected, with absolutely no possibility of Bricking or being detection through a wireless signature, for the simple expedient of removing any and all wireless shenanigans from gear that is critical (i.e. anything you carry on a run). The risk of bricking/discovery is not currently worth the few dice you can possibly gain. *shrug*

Complete immunity for the cost of only a few dice? Especially with the DP's you can obtain already in Chargen... Yes please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

bah, shouldn't have added stuff in an edit.

anyways, as has been pointed out: we have a situation where, supposedly, it is reasonable for the military to spend millions of dollars on this... but somehow it isn't a problem. nobody has any desire to defend against it.

and, as has been pointed out: you capture one soldier. you hack his gear directly, and get on the host. you now have a direct connection to every single other device connected to that host. there is no stealth defence. i have a direct connection to it. and the device is now just as defenceless as it was without a host. i've taken out one soldier, and i now have access to every other soldier's gear that's connected to that host. i can easily get their locations, i can easily find out what gear they're using, i can easily start bricking gear at any time, and i can easily invite all my friends to the bricking party... but hey, apparently military organizations don't sweat these sort of security risks.

not to mention that the use of HARMs will pretty much wreck any military dumb enough to have all of their devices broadcasting all of the time.

Which brings us full circle to exactly why wireless bonuses and bricking are stupid ideas to start with. *shrug*

Ok.

This is what Jaid is complaining about, I think:

http://s27.postimg.org/3rmpmlfkz/hosts.png

Top half of the image is how the game is currently structured. Cross-host there's a penalty (situation 2). But in the same host there is no penalty (situation 1). As soon as a hacker is on your system you have no defense, none zip zero nada. Not even being in stealth mode will help you.

Bottom half is how it (probably) should be: every device has its own defenses, but being on a host gives a boost (situation 3).