It costs nothing extra to have guns as Throwbacks, and you don't lose anything by doing so (unless your gun has wireless bonuses but most don't). Just one extra line on the character sheet for a little peace of mind.

Yep... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

According to..? I've already asked for a book citation on non-Matrix wireless, but unless I've missed it one has yet to be offered.

RHat, the micro-transceiver, pp 441, is a counter-example.

That is the one - You can hook it up wireless to cover the world (why would you?), or go non-wireless (sans any connections to matrix at all - throwback style) and still communicate within 1 Kilometer.

The micro-transceiver occurred to me, but I dismissed it as it's functionality is far and away less than is required for this subject. Comments from certain posters have directly held that you could have device to device wireless with Matrix connectivity. The MT is voice only.

And a force using MTs only for comms will get their ass kicked by an equal force using full wireless capability.

yeah, i posted them into an edit of a former post... and by then there were like 15 responses after that post. here's what i had edited in:

"as to proof of wireless without being on the matrix, one only needs look at some of the wireless bonuses. a smartgun can let you wirelessly do stuff. it also has a wireless bonus that gets added in when it's on the matrix. the microtransceiver has a matrix bonus and literally cannot function on a basic level without being wireless enabled. the datajack's bonus for being on the matrix is one that, if being on the matrix and having wireless enabled are the same thing, would always be available. the detonator cap has the base functionality that you can set it using a radio signal. then it has a special wireless bonus apart from that as well. a bug scanner, which must be able to read wireless signals, gets an extra bonus if it is on the matrix. a jammer, which must be broadcasting wirelessly, gets an extra bonus when it's on the matrix. every grenade launcher has a special ability to use wireless link detonation without a DNI, as does every grenade, if they are connected to the matrix. without the matrix, you need a DNI. if being wireless enabled and being on the matrix are synonymous, how is it that these (and probably other things which i have not listed) which *require* wireless capability to function on the most basic level have a distinct and separate bonus listed for when the device is on the matrix?"

so, basically, you have devices which explicitly have a base functionality that lets them interact through a wireless connection, and then have an additional bonus when hooked up to the matrix.

Doubt it. *shrug*
Your assumption is that Matrix Connectivity somehow grants you superior tactics and strategy, which is BS. It is simply a tool (and a shoddy one at that in SR5). *shrug*

Again, no. YOU have to be familiar with the device, not have 2nd/3rd hand knowledge of it.



It's still something you have to account for and may not be able to reduce to zero, therefore significant.



Again. You're making assumptions not backed up with anything, barely anecdotal anything...... A device behind a good comlink will probably give your standard soldier 10-11 dice before using countermeasures such as matrix defence actions. While yes, that's not insurmountable, it's probably better than having been shot at with an assault riffle from within 100m. Not only that, if the decker is that competent, why is he on a battlefield? I sure as hell wouldn't be. I'd be getting a big paycheck protecting corporate Hosts. Your standard decker may take 3-4 actions to crack that while perhaps taking damage in the process..... against 1 soldier, when his side could have fielded 2-3 soldiers in his stead (depending on the deckers competence and gear levels).



Those aren't my positions. You're concocting situations that are absurd to support your hate for a system you don't really understand and have seemingly not actually used in game. My position is that the cost and threat of a decker on a battlefield does not look good if you did a cost benefit analysis. They are not a front-line battlefield archetype. It's like putting a 'face', a 'retired cop' or the 'Rocker' archetype on a battlefield.

What i'm suggesting is that using your logic 'that hackers are a threat on the battlefield' i can come up with scenarios that still make it mostly a non-issue.

Shadowrun is not even about this kind of stuff anyway. We have street Samurai which are archetypes that may have been on a battlefield in some way. However, the system doesn't support this kind of play. On a larger scale you'd have mechanics that support squads (like warhammer 40K for example). The shadowrun system has been crafted to support playing with 2-5 runners on largely infiltration style missions. This is the same reason we don't have mechanics for how wage slaves use computer systems, because we don't need to know.



Yes, but you don't get magical matrixy bonuses. That's just how the world works. Wikipedia makes stuff work better some how that our poor 2014 brains just can't comprehend. I don't see why that's conceptually so hard to deal with. I kinda believe that most of this wireless hate is just temper tantrums being thrown about having to make choices.



That's what they used to have. Matrix Magic makes soldiers more effective at minimal risk and cost. with wireless on the soldiers are perhaps 10% more effective than before at the cost of a good quality comlink.



Again, this was just me putting up to your made up problems. If you believe that it is worth putting $500k deckers into the field and you believe that this is something they'd actually chose to do then I can find expensive ways to counter it........ even though I think those contermeasures are largely unnecessary.



No-one is suggesting that things can't communicate with different protocols, it's just that Wikipedia is needed to get pool and limit bonuses or bonus stacking.

Except you cannot hide behind a comlink. No Sleaze makes that impossible.
And while your at it, why are Hackers even in the Shadows? Per your inference, they should be working for a nice cushy paycheck in a corporate host somewhere.



Except that they will never be a non-issue to shadowrunners, since they are the defense of the Hosts they are trying to penetrate.



Where you then have to worry about your stuff being screwed with. That is the conceit of the game. And we DO need to know how a normal person uses the Matrix. If you don't, you get stupid results like normal users never being able to actually unprotect a file for their own use. Oh wait, that is an issue in SR5, isn't it?




So you don't have issues with the ludicrous nonsense that Wireless is more secure and faster than Wired systems. Others do. And that is a major issue for a lot of us.



Which is ludicrous and stupid. As many have stated. Kind of hard to argue with that, too.
I would have loved to see Wireless Bonuses be something cool and awesome. Sadly, what we got isn't (and is in fact pretty horrible). *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

I guess comlink users don't have logic. Nor do comlinks have firewall apparently.



No it's not. It's a problem you have with SR5. I don't have that problem. If an actual user wants to use a system then they just use it. See that's not so hard is it?



Most don't. I don't see how you can have logical problems with half the sci-fi stuff but be completely ok with the other things that make no sense. Maybe if you just suspend disbelief (which is a requirement of playing RPGs generally) you would have less issues and more fun?



So I guess it is a bit too conceptually challenging for some. I am kind of sick of arguning about it though. i just wish the haters would just stick to 4th Ed and stop bitching about 5th and turning every discussion into a moronic clusterfuck of hate. i'm going to stop engaging and just allow you all to remain ignorant.

Logic and Firewall DO NOT HIDE YOU AT ALL.
It is better to never be discovered than to be defending yourself from the get go. Or have you missed that in your tactics briefs?




Except that is not how it works, and you know it. Yes, I have a problem with SR5. It is a jumble that needs attention. It had such great potential, but the ball was dropped. That is FACT. Yes, some things are pretty decent, but most are not.



The problem is that the Stretches of Disbelief needed to allow me to ignore the ludicrous behavior of Computers and electronics that the current morass of Wireless Bonuses introduces is just too much. It is not Star Wars. It is a Near Earth Equivalent with Magic. And I am sorry, but Technology IS NOT MAGIC. I was pretty sure that was evident.



It is not conceptually challenging. It is conceptual BS.
And all that insulting people does is make you look bad. *shrug*

"the matrix magically bends the laws of reality" is exactly what i don't like about it. it's stupid. we know what the matrix has always been like. we know that it has changed, and we know how it has changed, and none of that explains why the matrix can apparently alter the rate at which time passes (reducing the time it takes to perform an action just by connecting a device to the matrix) and magically make you better at everything, including actions that literally take place faster than you have time to process what's happening.

it's the matrix. it's not a new concept. it isn't even a recently imagined concept. and nothing in the new matrix even remotely suggests it should have magical powers.

unless of course the actual in-setting explanation is that the matrix is behaving in a completely illogical fashion to modify reality, in which case considering how often in only the past few years in the SR timeline matrix threats have screwed everyone over... well, they should be trying to find something worse than the jormungand virus to gut the entire damn thing, because in the last few years alone the matrix has been the source of multiple major worldwide disasters that *supposedly* set back everyone in a big way, and the immediate response to "there is no logical reason for this to work the way it does" bloody well should be to get out the pitchforks and torches and make sure that this time they kill it with more fire than they used the last three times this happened.

What if the Matrix is Awake? That all our screwing around with clouds and grids has created one planetary electronic mind? Granted not one with a cohesive personality that can be distinguished as yet, but then what would one be like?

Maybe this Matrix Mind is operating at quantum levels, giving us the bizarre situations one has seen and how connecting to it benefits more than it should under normal circumstances.

The boys on top know its there and are taking advantage of connecting to it, but are also keeping an eye on it as they do not fully control it either though you can be sure they are very keen to learn to do so.

What if it is not entirely sane?

on a side note, it's getting really tiring having the goalposts moved.

apparently hacking is not a threat, except that we need million dollar solutions to matrix threats for everything, except that after pointing out the expense forced on the opposing side merely by the existence of a single hacker, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion because it's not about shadowrunners specifically even though it's a part of the setting the game is in. but that's apparently also beside the point, because even though militaries *could* defend against these things, they're somehow not a threat.

and apparently there is no such thing as wireless without being on the matrix, except that there are numerous examples of that exact thing happening, but somehow that doesn't matter either, because once we've demonstrated that, it's no longer anything to even consider; that's just because the matrix is somehow a magical power that doesn't obey physical laws, even though it isn't magical. matrix bonuses don't have anything to do with wireless communication, it's also some quasi-religion that alters reality for no apparent reason whatsoever.

i mean, seriously, your response to hackers that can be sitting 10 kilometres away hacking everything you have is that they have to worry about assault rifles within 100 feet? that somehow knowledge about a thing cannot be transmitted? damn, why the hell did i bother learning how to speak if i can't communicate information about something to you, somehow you magically are required to know about it from personal experience. it's not good enough to know where something is, you have to have personally seen it in that specific location for it to count. this isn't a ritual spotter, it's a bloody hacker using a computer. if knowing where something is is sufficient, then it doesn't matter how you came into that knowledge, whether it was spotted by a drone or not... but even if it DID for some idiotic reason matter, they could just show you the damned drone footage, and now you have that firsthand knowledge, unless we're going with an idiotic interpretation that you need to see it with either your natural eyes or something you payed for with essence. this is technology, not magic. we're talking about hacking a device, not going on a metaplanar quest.

and no, 10 dice from a commlink isn't going to save you (not that 10 dice is particularly likely... that's a rating 6 cutting edge commlink and every single soldier having a 4 in willpower). a starting shadowrun character can easily pull off 14+ dice (6 skill, 6 logic +2 from bioware, plus any bonuses gained from having a 250 nuyen program, plus hot sim) without even doing anything too fancy. even if we presume military hackers are slightly less brilliant on average, that's still a bigger dice pool going against your smaller dice pool. a less than 50% chance of successful defence is not an effective means of protecting yourself.

/sigh. I can't let this go...... Let me make position crystal clear. I don't think that it's a threat. I think that a soldier on a battlefield will be able to defend themselves adequately with their comlink for long enough that the decker will be sprung and neutralised. I don't think the battlefield is the right place for them and they just wouldn't tick enough boxes in a cost benefit analysis to be worth using.

Anything else I've said has been in response to your premise that they are a threat and they are a cost effective measure. Assuming in some bizarro world that this is the case, then options a, b, c and d would logically follow as countermeasures. I don't suport these measures in my Shadowrun world view becuase I don't see Decker hacking as a big deal.



The who gives a shit philosophy works best. You can stay up all night in cold sweats worrying about how you don't understand sci-fi, but that doesn't make the system bad. How do you deal with other games? I mean would you head explode if you you played Numenera?



Apparently you didn't because the rules specify that you can't do this.



Again, you are making up rules to support your own premise. Yes, you need to have spotted the individual device on the matrix at some point while having been within 100m of it, assuming that it is running silent. The whole point of this ruleset was to provide a need for hackers to be on-site for hacking, like the good old days of 1-3rd ed when you had to plug a wire into something to hack it. This is why your battlefield premise is fundamentally flawed!



It's not about having seen the thing in real space /facepalm. you have to have seem it while on the matrix while within 100m. Now here's where I play devil's advocate and pretend your point on ranged hacking is actually valid, just so you don't get confused' and say: If you know the exact location of a soldier based on some kind of drone footage wouldn't you be better off dropping a mortar on them and save the other $498k you spent getting a decker out in the field before payment?



So in your bizarro Shadowrun world view, we do have military outfits spending $200K on cutting edge enhancements (It could be way more than this if you think about who in the world actually gets deltaware gear if it's not the military) but not another 12k on a comlink to protect that investment? Ok, sure that makes sense...... and a trained warrior is not likely to have above average willpower? Not 1 more point that some average joe? Sure why not. I conceed your logic. Let's make it 9 dice then.



I'm not sure I support 'easily'. If you mean a device hacking specialist can achieve 14-16 dice at creation that would perhaps be more accurate, but what the hell let's go with that. So 14 dice vs 9-10? It's hardly a slam dunk is it? I'm expecting you to take 2-3 combat turns to pull it off and if you fail 1 roll the target can just turn their wireless off and forgo a couple of extra dice until they find you and stomp you into the ground. That's not even touching the fact that even if, and I stress 'if' the decker manages to brick your wired reflexes, it's questionable that this has anymore effect than to reduce your initiative to normal speed, dispite all the mountains of fluff text that suggests that a campfire might start in your spine but provide absolutely no rules on how this works besides stating that the device stops functioning. So say you support the logical assumption that the initiative decreases then the soldier can still find the decker's limp body and cap him with just 1d6+whatever initiative.

Wait. Is it "see it on the matrix" or is it "be within 100 meters is the physical world"?

Both doesn't make any sense, how could you ever use a website hosted on a device in another country if you've never been within 100 meters? Especially while also stating that it has nothing to do with real space.

I know what the writers probably intended, but what you just said wasn't it.

Presumably hosts have some sort of matrix address that you use for tracking it down with a Matrix Perception test. "Shiawase host for Facility A15-4559/s" would be hard to pluck out of the aether (though there would be a figurable difficulty for a Matrix Search to get that info). "Bob's Smartgun" is probably less easy to find if that's all you have to go on.

I'm guessing the website does not run on silent mode though.

directly from the rules, page 235, in the sidebar entitled "Matrix Perception":

"When you take a Matrix Perception action, each hit can
reveal one piece of information you ask of your gamemaster.
Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell
you. It’s not an exhaustive list, but it should give you a pretty
good idea about how to use Matrix Perception:

[snip]
If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent,
you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).
[snip]"

note that this is separate from the ability to check all icons that are running silent within 100 meters.

so... i know it's location. i know what the device is. assuming i have even remotely halfway-decent intelligence, i probably even know the brand name, what software it's running, and what grid it's located on for their standard soldiers (having standard stuff across all soldiers means that you don't need to keep spare parts for a million different pieces of equipment). therefore, i can do a matrix perception test to spot the icon.

for someone who keeps complaining that i don't know the rules, you don't seem to have brushed up on the rules yourself.

as to the military using rating 6 commlinks, well, not only do i not think the military won't be using the same hardware as "Billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft", but the book even lists "High-end devices, betaware, military vehicles and security devices" as being rating 4. so ummm... yes. considering "military vehicles" includes vehicles that cost in the hundreds of thousands and often into the millions of nuyen, and are worth rating 4 protection... no, i don't think their regular infantry are packing rating 6. not even if they do spend 200,000 nuyen on them (that's the device rating table on page 234, by the way).

on a side note, also on page 234 is the "Matrix Spotting Table". wanna guess what it says about targets that are outside of 100 meters range and are running silent? (hint: it doesn't say it's impossible, and against devices without a sleaze rating it isn't even difficult). so that's 2 sources now on being able to find devices that are running silent, but are further than 100 meters away.

so umm... yeah. if you're gonna tell me i don't know the rules, maybe you oughta check the rules first to make sure that *you* know what you're talking about, thanks.

so yeah. you can use cyberdecks, and blow a crapton of cash on defending gear because you were too cheap to invest in a few inches of optical cable, a better microcomputer, and some surgery. or you can use a host and have a single point of vulnerability for all of your devices (and still spend an awful lot of money... oh, and no the grunts are not going to have the same rating of host as "military command", by the way, so you can forget about that rating 12 host nonsense). or you can have virtually no protection whatsoever, since as a best-case scenario you're likely going to have 4 dice to avoid being spotted, and are rolling maybe 8 dice to defend your gear from matrix attacks.

note that you may not even be aware that your stuff is *being* attacked in the first place; you'll notice a data spike dealing matrix damage, but you will not, for example, notice all your files being copy protected (and therefore inaccessible to you), or having data bombs set on it so that if you try to open anything your gear explodes. you also won't necessarily notice viruses or worms being uploaded, but then again we don't have rules for that yet so i can't be 100% sure of what they could do, or even if it's noticeable.

as to why it's better than an artillery strike, well, artillery strikes don't let you find out who's communicating with the soldier you just saw, and don't let you wait until they lead you to more of their friends. artillery strikes don't let you go through all their maps and find out what they know. artillery strikes don't let you set them up for later destruction. and also, artillery strikes make it pretty obvious that you spotted the soldiers.

Remember kids:

Red lasers are only a quarter of The Battle.

(As a side note:


Ironically the book is silent on what "one feature" actually means. It may in fact be a recursive rule requiring that you've spotted the icon already).

the odds that they said "one feature" when they meant "one specific feature and no others, that specific feature being that you have personally seen the exact icon in question before and therefore probably know a number of features beyond one purely on that basis" are, i feel, extremely slim.

i mean, it's not impossible. the editing is certainly not great in a lot of places. but it seems incredibly unlikely, and in any event, it certainly isn't what they wrote.

and of course, this all still supposes that they need to be within 100 meters of your physical presence rather than your matrix presence (which seems unlikely considering you check based on your location in a host, which is a matrix location, and not a physical location, but that is unfortunately also not particularly clear).

Let's see here:

Smartlink: No, it can't have that functionality with a non-Matrix wireless connection; the alternative is the wired version.
Datajack: Are you forgetting the datajack's built in cable?
Grenades: You need to recheck the grenade rules, because you're mistaken. DNI just lets you trigger the wireless grenade faster; without wireless your options are timer or motion sensor.
Jammer: It's the difference between just broadcasting a crapton of random noise across all spectrums; by having actual wireless (that is, both transmitting and receiving) going it can become selective.
Microtransceiver, detonator cap: Pretty clearly uses something outside of normal wireless - a very small RF band reserved for the equivalent of a walkie-talkie. This band would be the only thing outside the Matrix protocols; basically not "wireless" per se. For the detcaps, this is an obvious safety feature - you don't want an accidental signal to set it off, so you use the one and only (very small, very low-bandwidth) band that isn't used for Matrix transmission.
Bug Scanner: Normally just a passive scanner, no transmission.

Now, part of what's important to understand here is that all wireless connections* are Matrix connections, but not all Matrix connections are wireless connections.

*: Defined as transmitting and receiving on any and all bands outside of the narrow RF band used for MT's/detonator caps.



And having a very, very, very useful tool that your enemy doesn't, all else being equal, means that you will win.

Wireless isn't some magic I Win button.

That guy with the high tech wireless suite can die to a punk with a knife just as easily as anyone else. This is Shadowrun, after all.

Planning and tactics can trump any tool.



-k

Yes, but a tool that makes your equipment more effective, dramatically increases tactical flexibility, instantly provides and organizes massive amounts of information, provides various levels of the command structure with the information they need to react to changing events rapidly and well, fix many fog of war issues... The difference made is smaller when you're talking about the individual level, but when you start looking at military engagements it's MASSIVE.

And remember, I DID say all other things being equal.