/dead horse incoming

You are not alone, chummer. We made 4th work, sort of, then made the switch to 5th, which killed Shadowrun for us. Started over with (mostly) 3rd ed. rules and are playing all the published adventures in chronologial order. Great fun, much more chrome, more punk, more gritty and the ruuleset, as you've noticed, make for a game that is over the top in a fun and cartoonish way rather than the 'open warfare in the streets of Downtown' of more recent Shadowrun. In the old editions, there was a sense of a 'real world' as backdrop to the action, an everyday life where people have jobs, send their kids to school and write angry messages to the super to do something about old mrs. Hathaway in 18B, who lplays effing Elvis Presley at full blast all night.

If you ignore Harlequin, and stop reading anything about the time after Big D dies, there are still about a bajillion loose ends in Seattle alone that should keep you occupied for a loooong time.

So I'm totally on board with the call for a reboot. Bring back Fasa-style fun, pretty please. Oh, and trim the core rules to <100 pages. I'll proofread them for free for the publishing house that takes on the mission to... (clears throat) make Seattle great again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Actually, this is not such a big deal, and can be overcome by some really classic sci-fi arguments… The main problem, I think, it the wireless stuff… Really, we can find no reason for wireless stuff to disappear in a distopian future?



I couldn't agree more on this. The tone has changed too, favoring the poser's attitude rather than the old guy's wisdom… This is quite sad and disappointing.

Wireless is just too damn useful for the technology to disappear in only 20 years. Like I posted earlier, still have wireless hacking, but it is only limited to rating 3 as there is not enough bandwidth for the whole shebang.


I also miss the 'Runners talking about the gear. The best example of this was Smiling Bandit and Wolfman talking about enhanced volume bioware in ShadowTech, and going on for several pages as Bandit made a joke about Wolfman's bad breath and how eventually Wolfman wanted to kill Bandit.

"Dead Men leave no Time/Date stamps!"

To be fair, shadowtalk had already quite disappeared from 3rd edition, if I remember well. The main splat books didn't have it any more. And… Probably it was a bad thing, leading to fill space up with rules and stuffs and rules and more game-breaking stuff…

And now for the most /deadhorsebeating so far:

#MakeTNsGreatAgain

I don't know. I mean they gave more granularity, but they could also lead to confusion.

Your housrules makes sense, but as I said, it does not disappear in just 20 years, because it was never there in the first place, in the Shadowrun timeline.
When did the Shadowrun timeline start diverging from ours? In the 80s and early 90s?
There were economic and humanitarian crises, wars, and general upheaval, that justify a diverging technological SOTA.
Updating Shadowrun every few years to the real world SOTA weakens the setting imho.

I actually like the distinction between ASIST-supported Decking with wires, and Electronic Warfare for wireless.

The major divergence of the timeline started with the election of Jeffrey Lynch instead of former vice president George H. W. Bush within the fictional timeline.



There certainly also are events that simply went a totally different way ... like 9/11 vs. the 2005 Earthquake that took down the twin towers within SR continuity (an event that was written almost half a decade before our world was stunned by planes by flown into highly populated skyscrapers).



Well that trend unfortunately already started during the mid to end phase of SR3 ... like with teh ECU being renamed to EURO just because that happened in the real world or the Chrysler-Nissan merger retroactively being turned into a Daimler-Chrysler-Nissan merger because Daimler-Chrysler happened in the real world. Other things included open source ideas and file sharing concepts arising without actual SR context just because those became "a thing" in our real world. SR4 and SR5 just took that to the next level.



I also like the destinction of different ASIST connections for decking vs. rigging or the fact that SR initially maintained (real world) anachronisms like "phone booths" and networking principles that by the time SR debuted actually had already started to die in our real world.

But now it's kind of "too late". There's no actual way of going back and doing it again from an economic perspective. Neither Catalyst nor any other publisher would be able to successfully revisit that particlar past for a decently large enough target audience.

I think I might make this a houserule. Wireless just doesn't have the bandwidth to support a full VR connection.

And just think of the cancer risk! Standing on a 6th world street would basically be like standing next to an open, running microwave.

Wireless technology was first invented in 1971 (Here's the supporting link) so the cat was out of the bag even in the 70's.
I'm not saying that wireless has to be EVERYWHERE, but you can't honestly tell me that it wouldn't be used.


Maybe combine what Tanegar and I said. You can hack in AR, but like someone in AR, you only go at meat initiative, and are limited to Rating 3 for your Deck rating. Someone rocking full VR is going to smear an AR Decker to Hades and back... unless the AR Decker is just that drek hot. It would allow for "realism" but also maintain the old style SR feel.


Finally, I think that without Wireless technology, you're NEVER going to attract younger gamers. Hell, I've been looking at the rules for Starfinder (the Sci-Fi version of Pathfinder) and I'm thought to myself "WHAT?!? No wireless connections for the normal people. We have that technology RIGHT NOW! It broke a little bit of my suspension of disbelief.

Point taken about the chronology. Wireless data transmission predates computers altogether, if you count radio waves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Does Starfinder have problems attracting young people though? I doubt it.
At least not more than any other traditional RPG... or comics... or books... or television... or AM Radio... or FM Radio for that matter...
Man, I am 27 and I feel ancient right now. What do young people do with their time? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I agree that suspension of disbelief is a problem, it always is. There needs to be a reason to things.
It does not need to be a good reason however, it just needs to be enough to explain away the inconsistency.
A good reason is definitely a plus, but you can get away with a lot under the rule of cool.

On that note, what is the reason there is widespread VR use in Shadowrun anyway?
It says on 3E Shadowrun that the data flow would be incomprehensible, and that the Matrix would be unmanageable otherwise, but why?
It says in the same section that programming is so far advanced that people do not do it by typing code anymore, is that a hint?
Most users don't even get Response-Increase/Initiative-Bonus because they use Cyberterminals...
I don't know, can anybody enlighten me?

I am deadly serious, I need help! You made me nit-pick myself into a corner! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

There was a long thread discussion about this before, but basically here's the problem:

VR (here meaning in simsense form, i.e. the thing that can be overdriven to fry your brainmeats) as an interface may be helpful if the degree of abstraction that it offers is sufficiently useful to summarise what's going on. This is (in essence) the position that you're referring to from 3E.

I will here elide a long rant about how the human sensorium actually works and why the above is garbage, and could be just as well served by a large monitor. Fill in the details for yourself, if you studied cognitive psychology.

The other side of the same problem is that wireless VR is also garbage - it either will be no better than any other well-presented interface, or will demand such insane levels of bandwidth that the laws of physics laugh like Atilla the Hun upon viewing the streets of Rome, and say: "Yeah, nope."

There's also the related problem that VR doesn't help you think faster in any articulable way that wouldn't be equally well served by a large, clear monitor or AR display, and if the goal isn't better thinking but better twitch game behaviour, you might as well have a tuned set of cockroach ganglia doing the important stuff as your own meat brain.

So, in summary: VR for entertainment is fine. VR for steamy hot elf-on-menehune pr0n is fine. VR for talking to a computer is fine as long as you're directly wired in. Wireless is fine for modest bandwidth requirements (i.e. NOT simsense VR) and none of the above will make a difference to actual thinking and problem-solving that wouldn't be made by a gamer PC interface.

Hackers/Deckers/electrofetishist plug-lickers should not be combat-timescale active participants unless they bought their own Ares Predator.

To give a shorter answer than Koekepan:

Virtual Reality is some cool stuff that was in many books that inspired the shadowrun cyberpunk part. Authors wanted runner to use it. But of course, there's no real use for one of your killers/thieves team to play video games during a run. So the video game became hacking while in the matrix. Then they made some fluff to justify it, like oh you know, there's so much data flow you need to be able to smell roses in the matrix to create code.

This was a stupid idea, and the matrix rules have been garbage forever, generating the decker/hacker's problem that's been a major problem in all editions and that even lead to the now infamous wireless bonus. I might have been trolling a little tiny bit during this post, but I'm not even sure of that.

To give a shorter answer than Koekepan:

Virtual Reality is some cool stuff that was in many books that inspired the shadowrun cyberpunk part. Authors wanted runner to use it. But of course, there's no real use for one of your killers/thieves team to play video games during a run. So the video game became hacking while in the matrix. Then they made some fluff to justify it, like oh you know, there's so much data flow you need to be able to smell roses in the matrix to create code.

This was a stupid idea, and the matrix rules have been garbage forever, generating the decker/hacker's problem that's been a major problem in all editions and that even lead to the now infamous wireless bonus. I might have been trolling a little tiny bit during this post, but I'm not even sure of that.

I humbly thank you, and I regret to inform you that I have understood only about half of what you wrote. I had to look up a word, been a long time since that was necessary for me on the net. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Still, I got the gist, I think, and I mostly agree.

I totally agree too, on the dedicated Decker being a bad choice if you are not playing all-decker. I recommend hybriding out that function, into a Street Samurai Decker, or an Infiltration Expert Decker, or a Face Decker, or even a Mage Decker. 3E is pretty friendly to this, since the role only requires one skill, and is basically only limited by a lack of money.
Having 2 deckers in the party would even make sense, if both sport mediocre decks.


I know the basics of how the genre came to be, but thank you nonetheless!
I had just hoped there was SOME kind of explanation, even in the later Editions, but if I recall correctly, 4E and 5E do not even mention that alibi line about the data flow.
Guess I'm gonna answer the inevitable question of: "Daddy, daddy! Why does everybody use VR in Shadowrun?", with a stern: "Shut up or no candy!".
If anyone should know of a good excuse justification rationalization reason for this, I would be very thankful indeed.


After having spent a lot of free time throughout this week finally reading, re-reading, and reading back-to-front, the 3E Matrix rules, and re-arranging in a more sensible order, I gotta say I actually like 3E matrix rules a lot.
They are dirt-simple really, not counting the endless additional complexity brought by Matrix (2000), they are just poorly explained and arranged. I will stress that reading the chapter back to front was my breakthrough move. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Now I would feel as comfortable running an all-decker group through a wild matrix-run, as I feel with running a normal run, and I think I could run a group with a single decker just as smoothly.

This is one of the weird stuff about 4E. It's almost a different game in the same setting, supposed to attract new players, but at the same time, in many places, it looks like you should be familiar with 3E to get the authors' intent…



I don't know if they are that complicated in 3E. It's difficult to explain, but I think that they are really overcomplicated if you look at what they deliver… Because in the end, you really just have a bland mini-dungeon crawl game. Throw dice to hit bad guy, throw dice to accomplish goal, repeat until done. Why bother in the end? Sure, you can describe some awesome landscape and say the bad guy looks like Vega while you're Ryu and stuff, but are there really meaningful choices and strategy that don't really look like metagaming?

Exactly! That's was getting at when talking about tropes.



Well, any dungeon crawl can be a boring one, even in dedicated dungeon-crawling-RPGs, like D&D.
It is up to the GM to decide how detailed the matrix run gets, I'd say, same as in any other situation.

I agree insofar that this is not as easy in the Matrix, compared to stuff that is closer to real-life, because the whole situation is framed in a rule-set that has no real-life equivalency.
In a combat situation, I could make up some stuff, like swinging from a chandelier, or flipping over a table to use as cover, or use my trusty pocket-sand and throw it in someone's face.
Some of these things can be expressed well in rules, but it really does not matter if you have a specific mechanic for it.
Improvising in the VR world of the Matrix is way more complicated for the player, because, with the situation being defined mostly by its ruleset, it feels constrained and un-intuitive.

I have never had a problem with the Matrix in 3rd edition and have run many a game where the decker was running overwatch alongside a team infiltrating and acting in concert using combat rounds.

In answer to the presented question VR in the world of Shadowrun and it's prevailence is to do with things like the ASSIST, Reality Filters, Litary Standards and Programming Methods & Interactions. Yep, VR doesn;t make you THINK any faster but the DNI response time is faster as you're not typing commands into an admin or operator console, your active programs are responding at the speed of thought and even instinct. ASSIST and Reality Filters basically provide to the DNI interface a customised UI, Macro set and a variety of other factors that splits minutes into seconds and seconds into miliseconds, it also makes Program Interaction simpler as ASSIST is designed to be instinctive pattern response and Reality Filters customises the Matrix entirely to your pre-set personal interpetations of how things work. You don't write or hack code, you literally manipulate the artificial reality around you to generate the desired results. It's the difference between playing an FPS and writing in pros each game in full detail describing every colour and shade of every object in every view second by second.

You're quite right.

According to the RAW, and the fluff.

The problem comes in with the part that precisely none of that makes any bit of sense with respect to well-established principles of physics, psychology or computing. This is why we have a verisimilitude problem.

You can, of course, say: "Computers in 2075 are fraggin' magic, build a bridge in VR and get over it!" and that would be your prerogative, but at least you should recognise the first part of what you're saying, about it being fraggin' magic.

The part where you're closest to being right is stating that nobody has to wiggle their fingers on a keyboard to execute commands, or click a mouse button. This is true. And making some massively huge assumptions about the actual efficiency and effectiveness of such interfaces (shucks, why not, while we're believing in elves...) you can justify, in game terms, a cranial plug. What you aren't doing is explaining why you need large amounts of bandwidth between your computer and anybody else's, if your computer is generating the VR experience. You also aren't explaining why this shouldn't be done by flatworm ganglia rather than your own brain, if it's instinctual, or if it's not instinctual, why or how you've done anything to significantly improve your OODA loop's longest part. To make it worse, in a world where your pocket secretary houses its own low-grade AI capable of doing all sorts of fancy decision-making things, why you wouldn't pre-script your conditions and make them all do the work for you is utterly ignored.

It's like someone in 1890 writing a game about the 1950s and saying that the horses will have steam powered armour, while ignoring the ability of powered vehicles to outpace horses, given enough fuel. If you're making assumptions about highly capable computing and software, and instinctive hacking activities, the idea that you would put your own brain on the line rather than an army of virtual drones and cultured mini-brains is simply insane.

And if it's not all about instinct, you're either prescripting everything anyway, or spending most of your time at your console sitting and thinking while the street samurai raids your beer fridge and the mage watches 3d titties shake on the trid.

I quite agree with what Koekepan said.

But to clarify: no one's saying that plugging your brain directly won't help you to communicate with the computer nor give you access to better interfaces. It will never turn minutes into seconds or miliseconds though, programming doesn't work like this, and typing on the keyboard is not such a limiting factor. But still we can agree it will make things easier.

What we are skeptic above is Virtual Reality in itself. You don't need VR to hack and clearly, you will always have a better time with a much simpler interface than what's described in the book.

I reckon that a direct brain interface, assuming that your brain will actually formulate thoughts substantially faster than you can express or act on them by your fingers (questionable, given modern twitch game interfaces) will save you less than one percent of time in action. Probably less than a tenth of a percent - definitely much less if there's serious span of time either waiting or pondering.

You could save more than that by preparing a set of scripts. Much, much more.

Remember, the whole damn point of computers is automation. If you're not using it to work faster than you can, you fail at computing.

Hackers/deckers should not fail at the computing.

Ok, I wouldn't be that extreme… You could actually think your deck is a very powerful tool interfaced to your brain that can interpret your thoughts into the ad hoc scripts for the task at hand, saving quite a lot of time. Not minutes into milisecond, but more like minutes in second, if by minutes you mean one minute and by seconds you mean around 10 seconds.

Now, really, we're arguing 2 orders of magnitude of assistance… not 6 or 7 as was suggested, so the point might be moot… And still no need of any kind of VR.

If you don't like VR, then just remove the existence of all VR from the game and play on.

Kind of missing the point. The idea isn't that simsense is bad, or vile, or inappropriate, or even useless as such.

The point is that, at best, a full hotsim VR rig wired directly into the target mainframe should give you mild bonuses. Wireless and/or remote, sim will get you nothing that you couldn't get from a decent twitch game monitor and mouse, and DNI will get you a tiny, tiny bonus at best, for a hugely elevated risk. It doesn't have to be excised from the game, but the idea of walling the decker/hacker off as a niche player behind an astronomical cost with headware prerequisites makes no sense.

This is actually a good thing, because if a boring old terminal on a slow old link is actually capable of doing useful things, you actually have a career path for the street kid to gradually ascend the ranks, rather than an all-or-nothing cyberdeck prerequisite.

The other side of the coin is that the 5E fetish for wireless everything that somehow is just that much better (except for when it's bricked) is also idiotic, and serious operators would never contemplate using it because it's too damn risky - and in the wilds, wireless just isn't that damn reliable anyway, so there's a strong case for your smartgun to have at least a skinlink connection.

Look at the technological realities the right way, and it actually supports the more interesting gaming milieu.

You don't need to do that. VR exists. Hacking exists. You just ban hacking in VR.

And then, you discover that you don't really need a full time hacker, just someone with the computer skills.

And then, you can produce a new shadowrun edition that doesn't have terrible VR/AR/Matrix rules.

My problem with the wireless bonus wasn't that I don't want cybersams to be hackable. My problem is that you shouldn't need to create bullshit reasons for cyberware to access the internet for them to be hackable. The right mix of directed IR, X-rays, Terahertz or whatever could make you able to at least perturbate signal transmission in cyberware.

And even if you don't like that, there is plenty of room for a semi-specialized hacker in shadowrun. Just not one that has to play video games during a run.