has anyone done a condensation of this thread into a readable/searchable format?

im just wondering if the limb capacity for items that go into multiple limbs have been covered? (probably have)

I have not been following the cyberlimbs arguments as I have should.

1) Are cyberlimbs compatible with ware like dermal sheathing or bone lacing?

2) How many articulated weapon arms can be attached to the cyber torso?

An obvious cybernetic torso replacement has a Capacity of 10. An articulated weapons arm has a Capacity cost of 8. My math makes it one articulated weapon arm per torso.

...now here's a best use for the cybertorso & cyberarms I've seen...:grinbig:

Fat Samurai

So obviously the cyberzombie on p137 is non-canon?

No.
If you exceed capacity, it uses up essence rather than capacity.

Except the articulated weapon mount is lacking an Essence cost, which suggests that you don't get to do it that way.

Maybe 137-Dude has used the 'Bulk' option for his obvious cybertorso to increase its capacity. :D

"Cultured means the ware does not benefit from type O and it can not be bought of the shelf (sic) and it cannot be transplanted."
I am new to Shadowrun and never played 3rd edition. The rule above makes sense to me. The idea that cultured ware comes in grades because there are ways to grow and implant it, that are more expensive and less of a shock to your system (or less conflict with your astral body image), also makes sense to me. There may be people who are attached to the 3E heritage, but as a newbie, I think it's a case of "feel free to apply house rules", not a case of "what were the designers thinking?".

I am not convinced that all secondhand ware should follow the Secondhand Ware rules. If your buddy dies, and his will says that you get his suprathyroid, and a skilled, well-equipped doctor cuts it out of his throat while his body is still warm and puts it into yours... should you really pay a higher Essence cost, than if you got a new one from Evo?
Could your intent also be expressed as "Cut-Rate Ware"?

"Same for putting your eyes on a pair of 3 inch, prehensile stalks on your shoulders btw."
But the latter has the bonus of forcing Sanity Checks on anyone who sees you. And a penalty on social rolls with anyone but true xenophiles.
What's the nuyen and essence cost for having your eyes on extendable stalks that grow from your eye sockets and can look around corners, a la "Who Framed Roger Rabbit"?

otakusensei writes: "It doesn't give your body needed oxygen, just removes the trauma of not having it. You still die, you're just more relaxed about it." - LOL! Drowning/suffocation is one of those things that systems handle with wide variance; see "Joe Drowns!" from Murphy's Rules.

Synner writes "I'll try to make sure files go out as PDF v1.4 in the future, though; looks like Augmentation got "upgraded" at some point in the process."
That's... all too appropriate, or ironic.
BTW, I had Augmentation in my backpack while at a Star Wars game in which a PC got their spine cut with a lightsaber, would need prosthetics to walk out of the hospital, but was from a low-tech (Wookie) tribe that considered prosthetics evil. So I whipped out Augmentation and showed the player the back cover: "Upgrade or Die!" It got a laugh.

First things first: congratulations to all those involved in writing Augmentation, IMHO the best Shadowrun supplement ever written (as it successfully summarizes and expands all the aspects of all the previous "implants" sourcebooks and goes further by incorporating fully new concepts)!

Now the bad news: some new character ideas (or old ones made possible by new rules/items) from some of my players are troubling me...

HEAVILY genetically engineered transhumanist (a.k.a. numero uno problem): I love this character just as much as as I know how "broken" it is. The problem/s with this one arise from some blindspots and/or loopholes generated by the Genecrafted and Genetic Heritage merits and the "bioware as transgenic alteration" rules and the possible combinations of them three.

Lowlife ganger "built" of used cyberware (a.k.a. numero dos problem): I like the concept, but I find the rules on used implants potentially unbalancing (particularly so at character generation).

Now, NONE of said players are troublesome nor powergamers (nor know about this forum, so please comment freely) and are aware that even when we think that said characters are legal maybe they won´t get to play them.

I hate being a dick as much as I hate houseruling and fall for one of these options only when there´s no other one available, so I very much welcome any advice on this subject.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.

What bioware counts as 'animal features' so you you can use that rule to get it is totally up to GM Fiat. There is no defined list, so you can infact just say that "synaptic boosters are not an animal feature." Just say no if you don't like it. IF I was you I'd be happy to compromise on some stuff though, because is it really a problem if he gets discounted cats eyes?

As for second hand cyberware man - I don;t have any advice for you there. :)

I pretty much agree with Cthulhudreams. The bioware abilities that can be gained via transgenic alteration are basically only those of the 'animal features' variety. So while you might think that Synaptic Boosters at rating 1 might be found in the genetic nature of some creature, rating 3 probably would not. You can use your own judgment for each of the player's proposed implants, and there shouldn't be too much problem if he understands the basic underlying concept of the gene therapy.

As to the second character ... you didn't give us enough info on just what kind of problem you foresee having.

I hate it when people try to get around the intention of a rule like that.

It's pretty damn clear that the rule is referring to bioware that is blatantly animalistic in nature such as Cat's Eyes, Hair Growth, Tailored Critter Pheromones, and Spidersilk Glands. Saying asinine things like "well, animal X has higher initiative scores and animal Y has more Agility than humans do, so Synaptic Boosters and Muscle Toners count as animal features" is just... meh.

While I'm a firm believer that the developers need to get off their asses and 1) actually word the rules properly and 2) keep an eye out for loopholes, that doesn't mean players and GMs alike should knowingly and purposely try to rape them simply because they can.

Thanks so far to Cthulhudreams and Fortune. Doctor Funkenstein... Chill out man!

I thought i had made my self clear but maybe I didn´t: the problem is NOT about people trying to rape anything (we have been through that ages ago), is about things that are not clear enough for us and as such I fell very uncomfortable houseruling about.

So, trying to be more clear:

1) I like the idea of bioware as genetic enhancements a LOT, more so when this is done to embryos: that´s the way I prefer to address biological enhancements. I love the idea of people being modified (even built!) before they are actually born and thus coming to this world already modified and lacking part of their "essence" (self?). For other kinds or "times" of enhancements I prefer cyberware (the cruder the better), though this factors in only aesthetically in our games and has no impact on it mechanically. Besides, bioware already was partially based on cloned material so I do not see it as such a big change.

What I do not like is that this "bioware as transgenic alterations" looks more as an accidental phrase than an idea fully thought through (even when I do think it is a cool one and really like the possibilities it opens up) and that´s the main reason why there are no clear rules about which bioware qualify for this and which one doesn´t (by the way, I don´t like the "transgenic" label either but this isn´t a problem).

So the question is: Is anyone capable of handing out rules (not fluff) about this subject? Maybe it is impossible at this time, but it doesn´t hurt to ask.

All this is also true for the merit Genetic Enhancement: that is, I am not sure about which enhancements qualify for it. I also don´t get if someone can get it multiple times and what happens if it does nor what happens if someone also gets Genecrafted: How would they combine, what would the final cost modifier be?

2) My problem with secondhand ware is that it makes really good stuff really cheap at character generation, specially some pieces of bioware and this heavily simplifies the choices a player has to make to "equip" his character.

Summing it all up: there are no rules that can cause real mayhem, when such a rule shows up you can always houserule it anyway you like. The ones that do cause problems are those that are unclear or lacking and (in my opinion) the ones I addressed fall under this category.

I believe that Synner has already laid out the rules for Transgenics in this (or a similar) thread. They are basically as I described above.

All of them.

If they had both, then you would apply both ... ie 40% reduction. Remember that Genecrafted only applies at chargen, and Genetic Heritage only applies to one modification.

As for the used 'ware, note that only that Basic Bioware (not Cultured) can be acquired 'used'. That leaves out a lot of the more 'problematic' implants.

I have a question relating only peripheraly to Augmentation, but thought I'd ask it here rather then starting another thread. Why do monks of the Diamond Eye sect from Tibet have an apparent cyberzombie as their guru? (See the Hong Kong section of Runner Havens.)

@Nostalgic Jester
There was a thread on this also, IIRC cultured bioware(Neural) is not an option for Transgenetic Alteration, so synaptic accelerator is not available.

Using the two qualities in one character does not save on essence but a 40% reduction in costs is a good thing.

Bear in mind that adding a tail, which is sorta described in the Transgenetic Alteration-Animal, I would use the costs and essence lost described under BioSculpting section to cover the needed changes like tail, ears, etc, but under Transgenetic features so the character would gain cost savings under using the two qualities.

Here is a list of "Some" bioware that could be used for Transgenetic Alteration, but each choice is up to each GM.

Trans Alt Chameleon Skin
Trans Alt Dynamic Chameleon Skin
Trans Alt Clean Metabolism
Trans Alt Chloroplast Skin
Trans Alt Dietware
Trans Alt Hair Growth
Trans Alt Sensitive Skin
Trans Alt Silky Skin
Trans Alt Skin Pigmentation
Trans Alt Bio Tattoos
Trans Alt Bone Density Augmentation (Bear and Tiger Bone structures)
Trans Alt Cat's Eyes
Trans Alt Chemical Gland
Trans Alt Exhalation Spray
Trans Alt Internal Release
Trans Alt Spit
Trans Alt Weapon Reservoir
Trans Alt Digestive Expansion
Trans Alt Echolocation
Trans Alt Elastic Joints
Trans Alt Enhanced Pheromone Receptors
Trans Alt Extended Volume
Trans Alt Gecko Hands
Trans Alt Gills
Trans Alt Hands and Foot Webbing
Trans Alt Hearing Enhancement
Trans Alt Muscle Augmentation (Bear and Tiger Muscle structure)
Trans Alt Muscle Toner (Bear and Tiger Muscle structure)
Trans Alt Nicitating Membrane
Trans Alt Quills
Trans Alt Skin Pocket
Trans Alt Spidersilk Gland
Trans Alt Tactile Sensitivity
Trans Alt Tailored Critter Pheromones
Trans Alt Tailored Pheromones
Trans Alt Troll Eyes
Trans Alt Vocal Range Extender

WMS

That's pretty good, but I'd probably leave the Bio-Tattoos off that list. :D

@Fortune
Well from the description of it's use a similar chemical compound that FireFlies use, I put it in.

WMS

Gosh, any particular reason you felt the need to have to explain these three? :please: See my previous post.

Anyway, why stop there with this munchkinism?
Adrenaline Pump (most animals use adrenalin!)
Cerebral Booster (dolphins r smart, derp!)
Chemical Gland (most animals have glands AND chemicals!)
Enhanced Articulation (lots of animals are flexible!)
Synaptic Booster (tiger reflexes, rawr!)
Synthacardium (lots of animals have strong hearts!)
Toxin Extractor (mongoose!)
Trauma Damper (lots of reptiles can lose a limb without trauma!)

:please: :please: :please:

I mean, screw reading the rule in context. Who cares if it's talking about blantant animal features like the ears of a rabbit or a shaggy lion's mane, and if you want such a feature to be functional you also have that option if there's a bioware version of it (such as quills and cat's eyes)? Just screw that. It gets in the way of munchy munchy munchy, so we can't have that.

I loath munkinate ambitions. But keep the aserbic sarcasm to the point and remember to be polite.
I once felt similiar. It wears off.
You realise you don't feel the need slam your opion down like a guage.

@DF
As I can see you are usual self. :)

OK these Transgenetic Alterations-Animal Features List is an "attempt" to list some "possible" ways a character could use the section under Transgenetic Alterations-Animal Features.

In an earlier thread, Cultured Bioware, ie cerebral Booster, synaptic accelerators, are not available for Transgenetic wares.

You might go and see what Synner said about Geneware.

Animal muscle tissues are denser and of a different structure than our muscles, that makes them stronger than us. I merely used those two animals bear and tiger.

Some animal bones are stronger due to the stronger muscles those animals have, etc.

Same answer for muscle toner.

As for the word munchy/munkinate/munchkinism, well those you Listed would be right at home in your DIMR online game here. :rotfl:

If you wish to use those you listed, go for it. To me I will decline.

I find it most amusing the most vocal person against what is called "munchy/munkinate/munchkinism", has a online game that fits those terms to a tee.

WMS

I think that there is a difference between 'animal features' and 'animal traits'.

I would be interested in just why you would choose to tag that game with the 'munchkin' label. You do know that 'munchkin' does not necessarily equate to 'high powered', don't you?

He's just upset because he knows he'd have never been accepted.