yeah. i'm not really arguing RAW, since there isn't much RAW to argue. just making a case that a GM could reasonably allow gymnastic dodging inside a car.

Personally, I'd rather allow other Physical Skills when they are more appropriate than Gymnastics... like Swimming, Diving or Parachuting, etc. - while Dodge is still the standard for all occasions.

that wouldn't be a bad way to balance it, assuming it needs balancing. apply penalties to gymnastic/swimming/diving/escape artist dodge tests that wouldn't apply to normal dodge tests.

That wasn't so much about penalties but rather the fact that there is no cartwheeling around in/under water or on a parachute and one would use another kind of movement training - and thus, another skill.

Penalties should apply when the best possible skill available to the character isn't that good, either. As a sidenote, passenger defense tests in a vehicle suffer a general -2.

I like that idea of substituing other Athletic Skills in certain situations.

To get back to the Synthacardium and Gymnastics Dodge ...

Rotbart: You state (and so does canon) that Gymnastic Dodge means that a person is flipping, cartwheeling, etc out of the way. If a Synthacardium grants its bonus to a person when they are doing all those things outside of combat, why do you think it suddenly magically does not do so when someone swings at them?

i don't think that's necessarily true, especially when there are multiple methods of accomplishing the same goal. for instance, if a character needs to get information out of someone, he might roll Intimidation, Con, or Negotiation, with different mods for each.

Y'know, only slightly on topic, but my reluctance to allow synthecardium is partly due to fluffy stuff. I mean, from the reading the synthetic heart is supposed to improve endurance, while 'dodging' isn't really an endurance thing... all that extra bloodflow means jack and spit at the moment of truth. I'll admit to bias when I say that the athletics test portion of the implant description is meaningful to me in disallowing dodge tests...


Just sayin'.

I will Recycle Arguments/Examples 1-4 follow up with comments 1-3 included borderline Snarky content. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

+1 Post Count (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

WMS

then why does it help on gymnastics at all? you're not expending more effort if your cartwheel happens to take you out of the path of a bullet. it's still gymnastics.

It has another side effect: It allows flying critters to make a Flight Dodge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


First things first: Game balance. As a dice bonus it's not limited by skill in any way and it's pretty cheap. Especially if one compares it to the other implants that give a bonus to defense.
It's even more blatant for Enhanced Articulation which provided a bonus to, well, pretty much everything involving movement in SR3 - in SR4 it's down to physical skill tests involving physical attributes... gone is the support for combat and technical skills.
Even without direct combat support, EA is still a very useful implant well worth it's cost, though - and so is the Synthacardium... which in SR3 only supported combat supplementary.

Then there is the second thing - both Gymnastic Dodge and Falling Damage Resistance only talk about 'skill dice'.
Similar to what Spike pointet out: What counts may be routine, not just performance. And a Synthacardium may enhance your performance, but not your routine. A Reflex Recorder (Athletics)/(Gymnastics) would, on the other hand... and thus be applicable to Gymnastic Dodge.

Well, from an endurance point of view, do you consider it reasonable, and would you (in your games) allow it to offset the cumulative penalty for dodging multiple attacks (up to its rating)?

Personally though, I think the whole problem would be solved if Dodge was moved from Combat into Physical Skills (allowing for Enhanced Articulation), and the Synthacardium was to add its rating to that skill as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And the Synthacardium would add its rating to any and all variations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, as the Watchful Guard maneuver implies that said penalty isn't caused by lack of endurance.


That would require the Synthacardium rules to be changed similaor to the Enhanced Articulation rules.
And then make them provide a Skill Bonus instead of a Dice Bonus.


Last time I checked, Flight was not part of the Athletics skill group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, one thing seriously lacking in Shadowrun is good fatigue rules for combat. I will tell you this: Little in life is as tiring as fighting for your life... or even just seriously pretending to...

Then again, few, if any, games cover that... ho hum, just another walk in the park as I avoid streaming hot lead and kill half a dozen heavily armed goons... pardon me while I get my latte....



Seriously, if there was a good codified penalty (and when to apply it) for long term combat because of fatigue, I'd totally be on board with allowing synthcardium to offset it... even for gymnastics dodges... or regular ones.

Also: I have realized my earlier 'I wouldn't allow'... stance must be mollified a bit: In an elevator or other 'confined space' I'd merely penalize the gymnastics dodger, not 'disallow it'...though being strapped into a car still is right out.


And finally, what I've been wanting to say for DAYS now: GYMKATA, fool!

But performing one cartwheel is also not a matter of endurance, and yet the Synthacardium aids in that task. Why not when doing the same cartwheel to avoid a bat?




Not necessarily. Just add 'and Dodge' to the wording of Synthacardium. I like bonus dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



True. But by canon, there's no reason that a flying being cannot perform acrobatic and gymnastic maneuvers, thereby gaining the benefit of the skill. After all, walking or running beings are not barred from using gymnastics to enhance their movement.

If that was still a problem though, I would just add 'and Flight' right after the 'and Dodge' part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'd say that "Flight" isn't in the skills list at all because (meta)humans aren't meant to fly naturally, thus they have no need for the skill. For creatures who *do* fly, I'd say it's definitely an athletics-style skill.

And just for devil's advocate, 1 cartwheel doesn't require endurance, but one cartwheel after being involved in combat, dodging to save your own life and sweating bullets does definitely need the endurance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry for making you misunderstand my point.
While it is nice to have endurance, the real problem as per SR4 is how well the character can react to those attacks.

Just most flying creatures don't have Gymnastics. And it still would be another kind of movement.

There are rules for Fatigue that the Synthacardium applies to.

I'm still trying to figure out why the folks who want to keep it working as it usually is in most people's games it seems(or most folks here that posted anyway...Synthacardium adding dice to any test involving the Athletics skill), and the folks who think it's overpowered, to just play the game how they want.

I don't personally agree with the latter, I let it count, because I hardly think a couple of dice on a gymnastics dodge test is unbalanced in any way, and can throw off the game in any way, especially since you already paid more for it, but hey, whoever wants to think otherwise is welcome to. (The whole issue of this super-delicate game balance always confused me anyway. We play with chax2 contact points, the last attribute point costing 20 rather than 25 and no Availability limit and we never had a balance issue. And we dont even shoot things all the time.)

It's quite obvious the two sides are never going to meet here. personally, i rule in favor of fun at all times, no matter what any damn book says.

Time and time again this kind of post is made.

I'm still waiting for someone to realize they're posting this stuff in: Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun

Because people (myself included) are not merely talking about how things work in their own games, but what is and isn't the strict canon rule on the matter. Both sides claim they are right, both logically and canonically.

There you go again. This is the nth time you've repeated 'nuh uh, I can't be wrong because I'm right.' My argument is invalid because your arugment is valid. Do you get dizzy from making so many circular arguments? If you would concede that your interpretation is not the only valid one, I'd at least respect your position. But as it stands, I can't. If you can't see both sides of the argument, it's because you refuse to try, not because there aren't two sides.

This is a question that I really hope they address in the FAQ soon.

for what it's worth, the control rig (which adds anytime the player makes a vehicle skill roll while rigging) gives +2 dice to all agi tests a cyborg makes when they are in a humanoid body and using their pilot skill for agi. this (to me) indicates that adding a skill into the dicepool (even if, as in this case, we are talking skill + skill as the dicepool in many instances) makes the test a test of that skill.

Hey, it's cool. I admit ive been a little tempted to enter myself(taking the side of ''It Makes sense to Use it'' as i said), but reading it might be better. I wasn't trying to offend, just making a point on how it doesn't seem like anyone is going to really give here, but now i understand folks aren't really trying to make people give. Hey, i guess since it hasn't gotten to flames yet butting heads can be healthy, i guess. Carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

No offense taken. I was merely giving a valid reason for our latest seemingly useless endeavor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)