1) You got 12 hits with a pool of 20? That's a hell of a roll, a 1.3 in 100 kind of roll. Should we really be basing out comparisons on that?

2) Ryu hit you with a larger dice pool, and a similar initiative, two IP earlier. If you can't make your shot by IP 2, then you may as well go home; he'll have hit you three times by then.

Ryu hit me? I must've overlooked that ... should be dodgeable though. Tomorrow, however, too tired for maths now.

Sensor signal is about range. Medium drones can have radar rating 6 installed, with only audio and video on top of that. Should be overall rating 6. Where is the maximum level 4 sensors rule?

Anyways, the greatest limit at chargen is money.



I don´t see that great an advantage for the TM - the rigger can go hot-sim, too, has a control rig, a smartlink, and can use sensors extremely well. Rigging is a prolonged activity. Whenever combat starts, the TM powers up his sprite tricks. Thats one IP lost for the TM, on top of the one IP spend on driving to avoid a crash test. The jumped-in rigger has to consider if he can hit in passive mode (depends on negative mods).

Without support operation, the TMs dice pools are nothing to write home about. He will already be better off jumping in himself.

The rule as of Arsenal is that when making general Sensor Tests (such as when Targeting) you use the Vehicle's Sensor Rating.

Though it is not explicit, and will probably warrant a FAQ, this assumes that the Rating of all individual sensors (in the Vehicle's default Sensor Package) is equal to the Vehicle's Sensor Rating. "If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly" (p.105, Arsenal). Characters engaging in any "normal" use of Sensors, including in Combat, are assumed to be using the combined feed from the entire sensor package.

Per the rule on p.105, the option is left to the gamemaster to allow in specific circumstances the use of an individual sensor rather than the complete package/suite. This option is not intended for Combat since anyone of those single sensors would be hardpressed to provide a complete targeting resolution; but rather it is aimed at allowing the pilot/rigger the use of cameras, microphones, ultrawideband radar or even radar for the specific functions they are designed for (something which might be useful if that particular sensor is higher rated than the remaining ones, or if you simply want to film or record a conversation with the vehicle mounted cam or mike).

I understand this will require further clarification, particularly as regards combat, but that is the ruling as of Arsenal. And yes, there is an inconsistency in that you can strip your array down to a Rating 6 Radar and say that your Vehicle Sensor (the only one) is now Rating 6. This was noted, unfortunately too late to modify in the first printing but will likely feature in the first errata. Though I can't confirm at the moment the ammendment will like require that a Vehicle/Drone Sensor package include at least 1 Camera, 1 Laser Range Finder, 1 Motion Sensor, and Radar.

That approach has issues with capacity.

The main problem is that the given sensor ratings don´t fit with the idea of near perfect (ratingless) audio and video sensors. If the drone delivers audio and video data, a normal perception check should be in order. The given mechanics imply that radar is used, too - there are no environment mods. The published sensor stats even make sense if sensor refers mostly to radar rating - the pilot would drive by optical data, enhanced by radar (through corners and such). Would it need to perceive its surroundings with Pilot 3+Sensor 1, pedestrians would be open season (a DP of 1).

Consistency could be maintained by adding "optical targeting": Intuition+Gunnery / Pilot+Weapon Soft, using visual mods, requires gun-cam.

Huh, that's very odd. Synner, you seem to be implying that there is something in a vehicle's Sensor pachage that is separate from the individual sensors. Where is this written in the book, and, if that's so, what do you do to upgrade Sensors, beyond upgrading the individual components of the Sensor package?

Ugh, the more I read these rules the more they confuse and annoy me. Bah; I didn't like rigger rules in SR3 either.

From what Synner posted in the Cyclops thread, all the sensors in the standard vehicle package ie cameras etc will be getting a erratta for SR4 and Arsenal, will be getting additional ratings.

If all devices in a sensor suite have the same rating that makes the sensor rating. So with the promised erratta/additions you upgrade all the devices in a Sensor Suite rating 1 from rating 1 to what ever sensor rating you wish the sensor suite rating to be.

Now is that clear enough? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Yes about as clear as concrete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

Ratings in cameras and audio recievers will likely reflect the number of enhancements that can be plugged in to the basic system (and the sophistication of the cameras underlying software/firmware and other functionalities) rather than simple quality. Depending on the sensor some ratings will likely affect range/signal and others function. The exact tweaks are still under discussion.


No Piloting or Sensor Tests are expected/required to get into a car and drive somewhere at a safe speed and following traffic rules (regardless of whether the driver is a human or a Pilot program), Tests are only called for when unusual maneuvers and situations come up. Should a pedestrian suddenly jump into the street in front of a Pilot 3 + Sensor 1 vehicle, then the vehicle might need to make a Sensor Test (if the gamemaster doesn't allow an automatic trade in) and then it makes whatever Piloting Test is required to stop.

As noted above the tweaks have not been finalized.

So is or isn't sensor rating capped at 4 now? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

As I've mentioned above it need not be, because as written there's a loophole in the Arsenal rules. That said the errata will probably end up putting a cap at 6 for civilian vehicular systems (assuming the right mix of sensors). It shouldn't affect the example either way since whatever works for the TM works for the rigger.

My reasoning would be more that I've found the arsenal sensor rules awfully repressive and cutting ratings down too much in general, creating absurditiers like the emotitoy drone with an AEGIS cruiser's sensor suite, so it's good to know that is getting errata'd. And your wording implies that military sensor suites can still be effectively open-ended?

People are making waaay too much fuss about a typo. Regardless, all Vehicle Sensor packages are listed as they come out off the shelf. Military grade upgrades and modifications are indeed possible, though the scale won't be open-ended.

It would be nice if video and audio sensors used the same mechanics everyone already knows, and are the mainstay of drone piloting, together with either cheapo motion sensors or full-blown radar. Everything else is a feature.



You are aware of the signature mod table. The trade in requires a DP of 4, the RAW optimum is 3. This is allowed to be auto-piloted?

I shall attempt to wait for the errata now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


The TM does not need a sensor rating, as he is firing his weapons with Command + Gunnery. Still, my points remain
- the rigger has similar dicepools due to higher skill and control rig
- the rigger fires first
- the rigger does not need an IP to control the vehicle
- whenever you are not controlling your drone, it is a sitting duck. The rigger has way more freedom on top of more IP.
- once the TM jumps in, too, he is not on even ground with the rigger due to missing augments

Any comments on the rigger skeleton I posted?

What typo? I do not get the rating limit of 4 at all. And I searched. Can someone point me?

I'm quite interested in these sensor rating modifications. As far as I can tell its difficult for a sensor rating to be above 3, unless you only have a radar in it. Atmospheric Sensor caps at 3 currently, and there are no ratings to cameras, laser range finders, or motion sensors. And Radar can't be what everything is based on, considering Radar won't fit in any vehicle except a car. The emotitoy has a sensor rating 3, but pretty much has no ratable sensors (I use camera, laser range finder, and motion sensor as standard for this size drone).

I'm waiting anxiously for more information on sensors/packages. I've devised ways for whats currently there to work, trying to stay within the rules (I use vision enhancement as rating for cameras), but clearer rules would make this alot easier.

SR3 had the following ruling on sensor components:

0: range finder, laser proximity sensors and ultrasound
1: all above, and video, radar, signature recognition software, low light, magnification (50 x sensor maximum)
2-4: all above, and infrared
5+: all above, and flare compensation

Note how effectively that defeats even improved invisibility against any vehicles. I houseruled that the radar's signal equals sensor rating back then, since I found no corresponding ruling for that and it's nicely in line with the magnification's ruling.

I only have the German BBB3, so p.135 won't help many people here, I guess.

*Bump*

Can we get on with the comparison?

Heh, got a little distracted with Sensors, didn't we?

The problem is, it is significant, extremely so, because the rigger and TM are using different rules. The rigger is using sensor-enhanced Indirect Fire, which is doubly dependent on Sensor rating, while the TM is using the Command rules, which don't use Sensors at all.


Despite this, so far we have hermit/Bishop firing on IP 4, with an impressive (and statistically unlikely) 12 hits using a dice pool of 20 for the attack, ending in 23P damage.

Ryu interrupted in IP 2 with a DP 22 attack. He didn't actually roll his dice, but assuming statistically likely results it's going to be 7.33 hits. I don't know what the damage is there, but it's also likely killer as well.

What part of the comparison is missing? Usage of Command is way inferior to jumping in as means of controlling a drone - as it should be. The lost IPs show that. If the TM jumps in, too, he can not make use of Support Operation any longer.

I´m still open to discuss the bare-bones rigger vs rigger-TM as char-builds.

Can't the TM dodge the attack? He's got some 20 dice, so dodging 7 hits should be possible ...?

But if sensores are indeed able to exceed 4, that kind of balances things out. Still, the fact that threading equals ~1,33 hits more remains, giving the Techno a distinct 4 dice edge.

But I'm open to either a bare-bones discussion or doing a more complicated maneuver.

The TM can dodge the attack while he is spending his IPs on controlling the drone. Then it does cost him the IPs as usual, as normal defense still uses Response only. So he can dodge if he wins initiative, yes. His "mere" 1.33 hits more are paid for by spending one IP per round on driving, and the first simple action on ordering "Support Operation". Once he does not shoot, the offense goes to the rigger.

One major advantage of my approach is the option for everyone on my net to use information-guided (in)direct fire. I have a all combat drones set up to fire on any target I aquire, and relay targeting information to the samurai, too. I do that on the first IP (2nd simple action), the TM needs a complex action for the same trick(Command Device action).

(And the TM can be subbed with a Rigger using Command Device. The approach is still not better at combat, even with +7 dice on top of usual command ratings. The TM can be a bad rigger for cheap (skill ratings of 1), but not compete with a good one without substantial rigging skills and jumping-in. As in actually having everything a good rigger needs.)

How does he have 20 dice to dodge? Can you break that down for me?

He uses Command to make the drone dodge, doesnt he? That's 10, +5 response (TM link = resonance) and +4 from that sprite of his. That's 19.

For Full Defense, you are Rolling Dodge+Command CF+Support Operation Service+Threading+Hot Sim bonus, so about 20 dice is appropiate.

In order to be entitled to make the drone dodge, you need to have spend the previous IP on controlling the drone. Command device itself is not a legal interrupt action, even if doing defensive interrupt actions for a Commanded drone is IMO kosher.

Actually I believe he would need to be holding an action. You are correct that Command device is not a legal interrupt action and this was a design decision - favoring full immersion "jumping in" over AR remote control. This is not to say a drone's Pilot can't do Dodge, its just that the technomancer or rigger Controlling it can't.