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Wesley Street
post Aug 12 2008, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny Jacks @ Aug 12 2008, 04:03 PM) *
Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?


Hardcore geeks hate anything new and they get angry when you point it out.

Anyway, the book.

Dislikes - The art on pages 47, 56, 78 and 81. I'm not arguing stylistic preferences here, those drawings look absolutely unprofessional, especially in comparison to everything else Catalyst has published. If I turned those drawings in for a high school art project I'd get my knuckles rapped. Poor shading, stiff anatomy, flat line quality, etc. They look like doodles or sketches, not a finished product. I'm hoping its a placeholder until the actual print. If it's not I take back every bad thing I said about Augmentation's cover because... ugh!

Likes - Everything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) New metavariants! Yay! New qualities! Yay! Updated lifestyle options! Yay! Group contacts, enemies and new contact archetypes! Yay!

On The Fence - The drawing of The Pimp contact who I have dubbed 2Pac 2.0. It made me laugh but my white-guy guilt also makes me think that it was a bit... racially insensitive. I think the old Ork Pimp route would have been a little less controversial. I don't know, I need to think on this for awhile.
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Aaron
post Aug 12 2008, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 12 2008, 04:09 PM) *
Centaur, once frolicked with friends in the forest
Kidnapped by mean men with lassos and electric prods
Violence, beatings, pain
Forced to make demeaning porn sims all manner of beasts
And then they slip
A three fingered hand finds a gun
An evil man's brain decorates the ugly plywood wall
Freedom

That would have allowed you to play a centaur at my table, with +1 Karma to boot.
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WearzManySkins
post Aug 13 2008, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Aug 12 2008, 04:36 PM) *
That would have allowed you to play a centaur at my table, with +1 Karma to boot.

+1

WMS
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Arawyn
post Aug 13 2008, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (Johnny Jacks @ Aug 13 2008, 06:03 AM) *
Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?


Maybe 4th editions is that threshold of change that the old-guard cannot accept. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
But I think that rationalisation is an easy way out of avoiding any deep thought on the issues.

In time, every publisher is going to make a mistake with their existing audience while trying to seek a new one.
eg. nWOD is a system that does not do some stuff well, that previous editions excelled in. (and the new Mage books are almost as hard to read as HOL).

4E is so focused on minis and skirmish combat rules, that they left out rules that some GMs need to run their type of game.

But I have not seen that issue with Shadowrun. The complexity that was the killer of games I have run on all previous editions has been mitigated really well while minimal impact on flavour.
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Cthulhudreams
post Aug 13 2008, 06:29 AM
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4th edition is very good overall. It only has one blemish - the terrible matrix rules. The rest of the game is excellent, with a strong resolution system, one of the most workable magic systems in an RPG ever, strong character generation etc.

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Malicant
post Aug 13 2008, 07:15 AM
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What edition did not have terrible Matrix rules? That is hardly a reason to hate it compared to it's predecessors.
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Johnny Jacks
post Aug 13 2008, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Aug 12 2008, 11:29 PM) *
It only has one blemish - the terrible matrix rules.


Would it still be Shadowrun if it didn't have terrible Matrix rules though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Mäx
post Aug 13 2008, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 13 2008, 12:17 AM) *
Dislikes - The art on pages 47, 56, 78 and 81. I'm not arguing stylistic preferences here, those drawings look absolutely unprofessional, especially in comparison to everything else Catalyst has published. If I turned those drawings in for a high school art project I'd get my knuckles rapped. Poor shading, stiff anatomy, flat line quality, etc. They look like doodles or sketches, not a finished product. I'm hoping its a placeholder until the actual print. If it's not I take back every bad thing I said about Augmentation's cover because... ugh!

QFT

Those where so horrible i can't find the word to desripte them.
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Malicant
post Aug 13 2008, 08:29 AM
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Oh boy, art. Well, some of it is nice, so to maintain a cosmic equilibrium, or something, some of it needs to be less than impressive. Also, like with terrible Matrix, no SR without terrible art.
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Muspellsheimr
post Aug 13 2008, 08:54 AM
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I was just skimming over the Shapeshifters, and I realized there is no White Rabbit. Now I have an urge to stat it out, but am concerned it would be far to powerful...
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 12 2008, 09:38 PM) *
Could you try to rephrase that? I'm having trouble following your meaning.


I could, but what would be the purpose of that?
You appearantly already deem yourself ...

QUOTE
There's a word for people that walk out on a losing argument.


... "winner" of this "argument" and have nothing better to do than trying to insult me right there ~shrugs~
As I said, SR4 is not important enough to me to go through the hustle. I wouldn't even have answered in this thread anymore if it weren't for Johnny Jack's question concerning "hate" ...
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QUOTE (Johnny Jacks @ Aug 12 2008, 10:03 PM) *
Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?


I can't speak for others, but I for one do not hate SR4. That would require me to invest emotions into something that simply didn't "catch" me.

SR4 doesn't work for me simply because my overall feeling with the game's world is no longer the same as with previous editions. And no it's not SR4 specific. SR4 is just to culmination of developments that I already disliked in some of the later SR3 products.

I'm more than willing to give big thumbs up for the general game mechanics of SR4 when compared to previous incarnations, but the "new" world simply for me is too much of a straight copy of our real world instead of a development of the original SR-Universe. That particular feeling is mine and just mine ... although any number of people might share it to a certain extend. No sense in trying to argue it. Others don't care about events like retro-actively changing things like Chrysler-Nissan into Daimler-Chrysler-Nissan just because in our real world Daimler and Chrysler actually made such a "marriage" (I don't dare to ask if now that this "marriage" has been divorced the Jack-Rabbit producing Megakon now also is renamed back to Chrysler-Nissan) or renaming the ECU into Euro just because in our real world the currency changed its name, but I do. I'm aware that these particular examples stem from the SR3 era, but SR4 - as I said before - to me is the culmination of similar developments ... WiFi, RFID, Peer-to-Peer software-sharing and many other things that leave me with the impression of being introduced not so much because the SR-Universe itself developed into that direction but rather because the writers simply had no clue about how the game universe should develop and thus simply copied our present day world again ... like it was originally done when SR1 hit the streets ... Although I do see some differences even in the act of copying back then when compared to the present copy action.

But that's enough "off topic" ... This thread should be about the new Companion and I suggest that people refrain from making wild assumptions on "hardcore geeks" and their presumed "hatred" of new things.
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Malicant
post Aug 13 2008, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 13 2008, 01:04 PM) *
[...]but the "new" world simply for me is too much of a straight copy of our real world instead of a development of the original SR-Universe.[...]

Which was just as much a straight copy of the real world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Aug 13 2008, 01:46 PM) *
Which was just as much a straight copy of the real world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)


~sigh~ Great selective quote ... I just wonder why I wrote this: like it was originally done when SR1 hit the streets ... Although I do see some differences even in the act of copying back then when compared to the present copy action.

Most likely because I missed the "copy action", right?

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Malicant
post Aug 13 2008, 12:08 PM
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Dude, are you really surprised? Rule number 12: Anything you say can and will be used angainst you.
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Aug 13 2008, 02:08 PM) *
Dude, are you really surprised?


Actually yes, I'm surprised by the stupidity of such a selective quote to "prove a point" when the text that quote belongs to already made that point itself.

QUOTE
Rule number 12: Anything you say can and will be used angainst you.


I guess then I just used whatever you tried saying against you ... ~sigh~
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Ancient History
post Aug 13 2008, 12:25 PM
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T'be fair, cochise, you're not exactly unknown for quoting selective snippets yourself. I suggest sticking to the facts of an argument instead of shooting people down, it helps present a stronger case for whatever you're arguing for.
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Grinder
post Aug 13 2008, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Aug 12 2008, 11:17 PM) *
Dislikes - The art on pages 47, 56, 78 and 81. I'm not arguing stylistic preferences here, those drawings look absolutely unprofessional, especially in comparison to everything else Catalyst has published. If I turned those drawings in for a high school art project I'd get my knuckles rapped. Poor shading, stiff anatomy, flat line quality, etc. They look like doodles or sketches, not a finished product. I'm hoping its a placeholder until the actual print. If it's not I take back every bad thing I said about Augmentation's cover because... ugh!


This is so true, sadly.
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Isath
post Aug 13 2008, 12:27 PM
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It's correct nontheless SR1 was a mixture of the 80ties with some early 90ies in it. There is nothing wrong to get SR in line with the way things develope a bit. Things change, even in Shadowrun, and it is good that way. Admitted SR4 gained some of the qualities Cyberpunk had, however, I really did like Cyperpunk2020 and the same goes for the evolution of SR. SR4 in many ways is not a simple remake of previous editions, it is more of the revolution I would expect of a new edition... a brave and welcomed step. While I liked every edition more than the previous, I did not like the direction that SR went before SR4. The 4th edition saved SR for me.
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Malicant
post Aug 13 2008, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 13 2008, 02:13 PM) *
I guess then I just used whatever you tried saying against you ... ~sigh~

Did you?

Rule 11: All your carefully picked argument can easily be ignored.

Also, just stating you used it againt me does not mean you actually did, especially if you assume to know what i tried to say, which you don't. Hence you fail hard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 13 2008, 02:25 PM) *
T'be fair, cochise, you're not exactly unknown for quoting selective snippets yourself.


Is that your sense of fairness? ~laugh~ Try to show me a case where I blantanly ignored that someone had written himself what I was commenting on without acknowledging it when making my comment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
I suggest sticking to the facts of an argument


And those "facts" would now be? I gave an more or less detailed answer to a slightly off topic question that lead to various off topic comments and ...

QUOTE
instead of shooting people down,


... someone tried "shooting" me down for it by trying to make a smart comment ... which I unfortunately had given myself already, including a restriction (that could have been elaborated more in detail in a different thread). And now you're blaming me for that? ~shrugs~

QUOTE
it helps present a stronger case for whatever you're arguing for.


~hmm~ A matter of reading comprehension I guess ... I'm not argueing here for anything anymore. That ended when I said it ended. And I can't make and surely don't want to make a "strong case" for something that I already declared as a non-arguable feeling of mine.
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Ancient History
post Aug 13 2008, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 13 2008, 01:05 PM) *
Is that your sense of fairness? ~laugh~ Try to show me a case where I blantanly ignored that someone had written himself what I was commenting on without acknowledging it when making my comment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Drakes, obsidimen...

QUOTE
... someone tried "shooting" me down for it by trying to make a smart comment ... which I unfortunately had given myself already, including a restriction (that could have been elaborated more in detail in a different thread). And now you're blaming me for that? ~shrugs~

Smart comments by themselves are not, as it were, worthy of comment. Your attitude for the last couple of posts isn't particularly endearing, however, and does nothing for how others perceive you.

QUOTE
~hmm~ A matter of reading comprehension I guess ... I'm not argueing here for anything anymore. That ended when I said it ended. And I can't make and surely don't want to make a "strong case" for something that I already declared as a non-arguable feeling of mine.

Yet you keep replying.
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paws2sky
post Aug 13 2008, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (FlashbackJon @ Aug 12 2008, 03:36 PM) *
Same with DND 4e hate, nWOD hate, Exalted 2E hate, etc.: people hate change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Ironically, I thought I'd love SR 3rd ed, but ended up hating it instead. Conversely, I thought I'd hate SR 4th ed, but... well, I really dig it.

Go figure. *shrug*

-paws
EDIT for clarity
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 13 2008, 03:23 PM) *
Drakes, obsidimen...


Huh? Where did I make a selective quote concerning drakes and obsidimen which I commented with something that the person I quoted had said in the very same text?
Please be "fair" enough to provide a quote on that ...

QUOTE
Smart comments by themselves are not, as it were, worthy of comment.


Yet they can be commented ... And I surely won't shy away, just because someone made such a "smart comment" .. especially after someone else already made a comment about leaving a lost argument (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
Your attitude for the last couple of posts isn't particularly endearing,


Just as non-endearing as uncalled insults or "smart comments" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
however, and does nothing for how others perceive you.


Should I care? You yourself didn't care about something like that

QUOTE
Yet you keep replying.


So?
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Ancient History
post Aug 13 2008, 01:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 13 2008, 01:44 PM) *
Huh? Where did I make a selective quote concerning drakes and obsidimen which I commented with something that the person I quoted had said in the very same text?
Please be "fair" enough to provide a quote on that ...

I was referring to a case where you focused less on the facts of an argument to who was arguing.

QUOTE
Just as non-endearing as uncalled insults or "smart comments" ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd prefer a smart comment to the defeatist attitude you've put up over the last few posts.

QUOTE
Should I care? You yourself didn't care about something like that

Says who? Public perception means different things to different people, but few people are asocial enough for it not to affect them at all.

QUOTE
So?

Well, it is indicative of someone that isn't quite ready to let things go, no matter how "ended" they feel the subject of discussion is.
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Cochise
post Aug 13 2008, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 13 2008, 03:51 PM) *
I was referring to a case where you focused less on the facts of an argument to who was arguing.

Which - disregarding my different PoV on how I might or might not have focused on what you deen "facts" - is something different than making a selective quote to produce an "appearant" counterargument that already has been mentioned by the person that is being quoted.

QUOTE
I'd prefer a smart comment to the defeatist attitude you've put up over the last few posts.


Defeatist? I ended a fruitless "argument" for which you more or less insulted me as "quitter".
I then gave an answer to a question that was totally unrelated and got another stupid comment. I see no defeatist attitude there.

QUOTE
Says who? Public perception means different things to different people, but few people are asocial enough for it not to affect them at all.


I still find it rather amusing when someone who - by his own words - doesn't care about such public perception tells others to take care of their public perception ...

QUOTE
Well, it is indicative of someone that isn't quite ready to let things go,


It's an indication that "someone" doesn't want to "let go" a different aspect that was talked about in this thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE
no matter how "ended" they feel the subject of discussion is.


Am I still talking about Obsidimen? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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