OK, time to ad my $.02 to the discussion about Magic, Overcasting and my idea for dealing with them.

Change all Direct Combat Spells from "F/2" to "F". This is pretty damn hard for Direct Spells.

As for overcasting... make it so Mages can only go to Magic * 1.5 rather than Magic * 2. I know that isn't much, but it does prevent uber spells from being tossed about.

The thing is, we can assume the Designers find no flaws with the current way overcasting works. Otherwise they would have changed that.

Instead they changed the way drain is handled for successes. Which many people seem to be shaking their heads at.

Honestly, the way overcasting now works fine IMO and I think the real problem is how it interacts with first aid.




Are you going to impose a similar nerf on the amount of targets you can hit with a grenade?

If you were going to implement such a severe nerf, at the very least make it MAG rating = # of targets. Otherwise your change hammers starting casters who generally start with a MAG 5.

OK, so, I am reading the spell casting rules here, and I notice that Object Resistance only applies if the target is the object. So, casinting Improved Invsibility or Lightning Bolt on a Drone needs 6 successes, on a Camera Needs 4, but on the person who is skulking about protected by the Imp Invisibility? It does not need anything more then to pass their resistance..well, unless you want to count their clothes in for an OR of 2. I see no-where where it says that one has to beat the OR of things NOT targeted by the spell for it to take effect.

Oh, wait..I take that back..continuing on, Indirect Combat spells are treated as a ranged attack, and are against the targets reaction. Downside is, unlike Direct Combat spells, there is a damage resistance test, that armour applies to. However, it is half IMPACT armour. Object Resistance does not apply to these spells, so Lightning Bolt becomes the spell of choice for shooting down drones(since it is also Electrical Damage).

Of course, I can see Imp Invis not being completely reliable against Drones, since it only effects visual senses. Give a Droone somthing like Ultrasound or Radar? Does it matter that the visual camera cannot detect the target?

The clothes aren't looking at the invisible person, except if they have built-in cameras, so there's no need to beat their OR.

Going backwards through your post, there's a table on pg. 152 of SR4A that lists visibility modifiers for different types of "vision". Ultrasound is on there. If we were to suppose that being invisible were equivalent to "Full Darkness" because you can't see your target at ll, then you'd be look at a -3 penalty for relying on pure Ultrasound. Radar uses the same visibility modifiers as Ultrasound (as stated in Augmentation).

Regarding who is the target of illusion spells, the book explicitly says that you have to overcome the OR of any non-living thing for the spell to "be effective" against them. You cast it on yourself, but its the viewer that resists the effect.

With Lightening Bolt, you do not need to get six success to affect a drone, etc. You create an actual physical effect - a charge of electricity in this case - which is no longer magical but actual energy, and you fling it at the target. You would need to overcome the OR if it were a Direct Combat spell.

Shall we nef the sams the same way, as they also do massive amounts of damage?

I propose that guns can overheat or even explode (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) , doing their damage code + net hits damage to the shooter.

Now we only have to agree on a meningfull roll to counter the heat build up and a target nr when the gun explodes.

I say we take base damage value hits as the target nr of overheating, each hit above that imposes a - 1 die penalty on supsequent shooting actions with that gun and lowering the overheating target nr.
The gun explodes when one has 2x base damage value hits.

This would about nerf the Sams the same way as the changes in OR, attribute cost and direct combat spell drains neft the mages

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No... I see no reason. I was using a mechanic already in the book. Dual casting... Split your dice pool and cast two spells at +1 drain to each spell per spell cast. I chose 1/2 magic as a base because it puts a significant restriction on very powerful spells. I was also thinking of adding a metamagic to allow a mage to hit additional targets up to grade without increasing drain. It would work best when combined with the SR4 version or drain instead of the SR4A version.

I am on your side when it comes to the magic debate... However, I don't mind compromising when it comes to making the game better.

I think everyone is forgetting a few things when it comes to mages. Most mages only have one initiative pass while your street sam can and usually has more. Yes, a mage can get Increase Reflexes.
Save all the arguments and counterarguments for that spell we have talked about them enough already.

Why are direct Damage spells so good? Simple... At least from a SR1 standpoint when it was harder for a mage to get multiple passes. I cast once per turn, I fry one person... A street Sam shoots multiple times per action and gets multiple turns and fries 2, 3 or more targets. That was the balance then. Things have changed. Now the mindset for the game is that everyone needs multiple passes and anyone who only has one is worthless.

I have argued till I'm blue in the face about spells vs. guns with my GM. I have even done it here to some extent. And with the current way of thinking with inflated dice pools and multiple passes mages need a good kick to the nuts to bring them back down. Mages have 10x the amount of tricks than any other character. A fact everyone seems to forget. "Quick, we need to get off this rooftop cast levitate on us!" or "We are being overrun bring out your elementals!" or... I think everyone gets my point.

I play mages almost exclusively. I never had a mage with Improved Reflexes. You want mages to be back to the way they where... Say mages can only cast one spell per initiative turn (not pass) no matter how many passes they have and put everything else back to the way it was.

And this is why my post count is so low... I try to avoid these arguments...

This might already have been mentioned but Bow damage has been adjusted with SR4A. Lot's of clarification stuff I'm coming across too.

No more Cybered Trolls doing Rail Gun damage with a bow? It's about time.

Since the BBB states that Imp.Invisibility really wrap the light around the subject, i only consider the OR when the camera/sensor has any way to process image (like a drone's sensor or a camera that automatically detect movement and sounds an alarm). If the camera just generate the image and show for someone (metahuman), without any kind of process (just like a normal digital camera), i oppose the test with the metahuman whatching the footage.

Is that right? Wrong?

Well, any time an object is subject to a physical spell (except powerbolt/ball and its variants) you must beat it's OR. There is no perception check at all, ever. You get 4 hits on imp.invis. you become invisible to cameras (any cameras as far as I can tell) you get 6 hits you are invisible to drones, any drones... No perception check.

As far as I can tell anyway if I understood Synners post a few pages back.

Sorry, it just seems like posts are coming out of the woodwork with dozens of new ways to nerf mages.

As for your idea, half magic is very drastic in my opinion. And adding drain for each extra target only makes it worse.

I also don't think it's necessary.




I just don't see the need for that kind of "balance" in that particular example (street sam vs. mage), unlike many people I don't actually disparage D&D 4E for the current balance it has. But when I want to play that game, I'll play that game.

What's always attracted me to shadowrun is that characters/character development has an organic "real world" feel to it, allowing characters to learn a variety of skills/abilities outside of their archtype.




You don't think the karma costs for a mage are enough to balance that out?

I know karmagen is very popular with some crowds, but no one I play with uses it. It's all BP generation.

And no mage can do it all when they first start out.




Well I personally don't have a problem with it.

However, maybe as a houserule you could add a cumulative -1 or -2 to the mages spellcasting dice pool for each spell cast in the same combat turn.





Nah, keep posting my friend. You make some good points.

These kinds of dialogues are the heart of "working things out". It's how things improve. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I don't see the reason it needs to be balanced eather. But if the Dev's and some players feel that it needs to be I would rather a fix work within the already established rules than invent new ones.
I am with you on the character development and creation. Shadowrun has, in my oppinion, the best overall creation system available. It allows for virtualy any character concept and is not overly complex. At my table we don't use the BP system we use Karma but it is vastly different than the one in RC and the characters that come out of it tend to be more balanced.
To be honest, my first thoughts on the casting issue was to make mages like TM's with spell threading and such and have spells karma costs like active skills. But that is WAY over the top...

Making indirect spells once again shitty and less useful? The problem with indirect spells is that no one was using them, not that they were too powerful.

To be honest, I would simply rule that you can't use first aid to treat "mana burn" (for lack of the better term), either. It's an entirely internal effect that burns from the inside out by some of the splat descriptions. It's not like you can just slap on a bandage and call it good after a bit of neosporin gets put on it, fer chrisakes.

That's almost verbatim what I said to my players last night, Phipps. I'm in full agreement with this. I can accept treating bruises and minor cuts with first aid, such as from getting a beating or soaking up bullets with heavy armor. I can accept first aid setting broken bones, suturing cuts closed, and applying salves.

But I really can't see first aid helping supernaturally-induced weariness - outside of Stim Patches, anyway, which is another mechanic - or internal bleeding caused by your body tearing itself apart. I personally don't let First Aid heal drain for those reasons. I'd let actual medical care do it, but not First Aid alone.

With my mages I was used to go for as many passes as possible and than working in concert with sammy, a bounch of mooks start the fight too close to each other? force 5 stunball, the stun isn't enough to 'em out but it imposes at least a -2 penality to every test, than there's trid phantasm for confusing the opposition, levitate to toss things around/manipulate the battlefield, seriously there's so much fun to be had working as a team; and if you make impractical overcasting one hit knock outs are much harder to pull out leaving sammy with his/hers/its share of action.

My proposed fix was for "ball" and "mob" spells. Like Stunball and Mob Mind. Not Indirect spells, I treat them like grenades... Once it is there thats it... My idea was for spells where the caster needs to know who he is trying to hit and where to direct the mana to, which is why it's like dual casting.

Which is why I don't think there was as much of a problem as people say there was. Yes, I did say DDC spells where powerful and that they needed to change but that was in referance to people having problems in other games. The issue almost never comes up in my group. But if, as a group, people feel it needs to change I would rather see a fix that works within the rules than starts inventing new ones. Which is why I try and come up with ideas that have a grounding in some other rule.

Brings up an idea for a focus. (not that it belongs in this thread but...)
With all the talk of mages directing mana to targets and such how about a focus that is two seperate ones. The mage bonds to both gives one to a friend and can cast spells on the focus to affect the person carrying the other. (would still need to be within LOS) Really only useful for touch spells at range (Heal) which could get broken quick... remotely like Wheel of Time Sa'Angreal. (sp?)

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Sa'Angreals are really good power focusis, not somekind of affect the carrier from afar thinks.

Yes, I know. Sa'Angeals are one device with two parts. Well at least the one Rand had was. The big statue gathers the Source and funnels it to the smaller one. That was the effect I was going for... Should have been more specific. Sorry

That's an awesome idea. Now there's no need to keep yourself from flinging around AOE's every chance you get, because you can always prioritize your "affected targets" in such a way to toss a Stunball into the middle of a room and not hurt your buddies who are standing there.

I can see the Nano-medics in the Saviour Med-kit being able to heal this sort of damage and potentially custom drugs developed to target the areas that suffer damage when overcasting. Sixty years is a long time in medicine....

Still that would be my first or second port of call in nerfing overcasting.

Not entirely sure if you where being sarcastic. *shrug*
And yea, it would be a side benefit you could cast with your buddies in the AOE and not care. Just remember, the mage can cast AFTER he declares spell defense on his buddies so the chance to hurt them is small anyway.

Turns on sarcasm detector...

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