Just to back that up a little:



Emphasis mine.

The same sidebar also talks about why their are uncommon concentrations of metahumans vs. humans working the shadows compared to more normal walks of life.

My view was never that being unique is an advantage. I said that some players would value it, even though it's actually bad. It might make you stick out more, it might make you easier to find, but it also makes you more interesting and more cool. Value is not the same as advantage. Lots of things have value that confer no advantages, like toilet seats made of gold. The devs intended Oni to be like that -- worth a small number of points for being interesting and different, even though system wise that is not a good thing.



Again, being an Oni has value to some people, or to the devs at least. You get to look like a cool demon from Japanese legend. I don't know. Your point is, you disagree with this, and call it wrong. That's non sequitur. The only thing that follows from the fact that you don't think being an Oni has value is that you don't think being an Oni has value. It does not follow that this value is nonexistent.

As for the red skin, Oni have more than just red skin. Being a normal meta with weird skin makes you a SURGEd freak. Being an Oni makes you unusual, but you have a distinctive look that means people know you're part of a meta subtype, and not a mutant. It's a different set of traits, and therefore a different value.



My ass it doesn't! Almost everyone here is thinking, "Man, Oni suck so much, I'd have to be drunk to make one." And like maybe one person is like "I ignore BP and just focus on concept, so I might make an Oni." I think that very well accomplishes the objective of making them rare. I can't believe you're seriously contending that making something shitty has no effect on whether anyone wants to use it.



You're ignoring relevant parts of my post to prove your point, namely the part where I said it would be unrealistic to have a team of Oni with no back story. If they were friends already, and happened to meet up and form a team, then it would make sense. If they went to a bar that was the one place in Seattle where Oni were a common sight and met each other, that would make sense. If a J just called for four random runners, and they all just so happened to be Oni? That would be almost impossible.



The incidence of mages in runner teams is higher than their incidence in the population. The same might be true for Oni, too. But the percentage of Oni is much much much smaller than the percentage of mages. So even if there were more Oni in shadowrun teams than in the population, there would still be much fewer Oni than mages. And the rules are likely to accomplish that.



Ah hah! And now you've just conceded away your whole argument. It's based on your own opinion. Spirits are worth the points in your opinion. Where I see something with a huge premium on coolness and uniqueness, you see value. You dislike putting points on coolness, because you believe that it's too subjective. That's all your own preferences. You're not showing my why the game is wrong, you're showing me why you don't like it. And hey, if you could just step back and say "you're right, this isn't about the game being wrong, it's about me disagreeing with it personally," this argument would be over. You are entitled to your own opinion, I might even agree with you somewhat. All you have to do is recognize that your preferences are yours, they are not absolute truths, and they are not binding on other people. Other people, including the devs, can disagree. And this does not make them wrong, it just makes them people who value things differently than you.



And I'm saying that "less competent" is an overstatement. Worse in some way? Fine. Worse in some way that matters? Nope.

Basically, it all boils down to persona Style...
In my opinion, Shadowrun (like Cyberpunk) is Style over Substance...

And yes... 5 BP less does not hurt a character in any significant way that matters...

Huh?
I said spirits are worth those 250 points in my opinion which has nothing to do with coolness or whatever but with being able to teleport, materialize/possess and being almost immortal. You know the kind of things that actually have an in game effect.
If you think they are worth less then that's your opinion which you are entitled to but that they have unique abilities is undisputed.

And if you would take the time to read what the "sr4 detractors" as you so eloquently put it actually wrote you might start to notice that we're the ones that want personal preferences out of the rules.
You want people to pay more or less for something that you believe is cool/extraordinary/whatever and by doing that you force your opinion onto people and that is wrong.
We want people to pay only for something they actually and objectively get like farting bullets and somesuch.

Oh and let me answer your funny assertion that coolness is not subjective with two words: Boy bands.

Right. You think they are worth every point. I think that they're not because they start out with next to nothing in skills and attributes. I think they pay a large premium for being rare, unique, different, cool, you name it. This is a disagreement based on opinion, not hard fact. I defy you to quantify the BP system in a meaningful way -- it cannot be done because it is arbitrary, based on a developer's assessment of value, which doesn't necessarily line up with yours.



What am I forcing on who now? The devs wrote the rules. They're the ones using their own opinions to write them. I wouldn't call it forcing their opinions on them, you bought it voluntarily. If you're unhappy, you can use your own opinions, and change the rules. No game is perfect, and if you're going to sweat the small stuff, you're not going to need house rules. The way I handle it is I take everything in stride, and only make a house rule if it's extremely important to me.



Um, I didn't say that coolness is not subjective. I said that you're right, it's absolutely suggestive. You don't think that Onis are cool enough to cost 5 points. Evidently, others, including the devs, do think that. That's the basis of this argument. Not an objective measure, but someone's subjective assessment of coolness. You think that their coolness is worth 0, the devs think it's worth 5. You have no basis to contest that as objectively wrong, because it has an subjective, not objective basis. You can disagree about whether anything should be based on a subjective concept like that, but that too is a subjective argument. Some people, like me, don't care if the devs use subjective standards. The fact is, the game is too complicated for everything to be based on objective standards. You simply can't make an RPG that's "objective," it would require some insanely complicated math that would probably end up with a crappy game anyway. The fact is, the very question of the right way to make an RPG is open to debate, and not capable of objective determination.

To make myself absolutely clear: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're neither right nor wrong. Build Point costs are largely arbitrary, and the "right" value for them is entirely subjective. You're just as right as the devs are. All I want is for you to stop pretending that there's some sort of absolute truth out there when it comes to BP costs, and only you know how to find it.

Also, your "answer" does not make sense to me. It sort of sounds like an attempted insult, but honestly I just have no idea what you mean. Wait, scratch that. My eyes are a little bleary, I thought you wrote "boy hands." Now I get you, after reading the actual word. But it doesn't matter, you're absolutely right that coolness is subjective, and I never tried to contest that.

Not to mention the 150+ BP worth of unique positive qualities...

I think it is worth the 5 points to play an Oni...

*Shrugs*

Seriously, you guys are going in circles. For those who think Oni are overpriced, you're right. Awhile back I attempted to quantify the precise objective BP cost of each race, purely based on the varied bonuses and negatives a race would have. Orks came out to 45, Oni to 35.

Edit: Apparently I'm still linking to the old forum topic in my sig. It's outdated. I'm posting a current .doc file of the breakdown to my SR page so people can see the numbers breakdown.

Edit2: Link now points to the file in question. Yay.

And know we get to the biggest reason why rarenes is a factor in racial cost of metavariants, that being that no metavariant should be cheaper then their parent metatype.

I successfully have done so, for all metatypes/varients, & infected (I have simply not bothered with the other races yet, as it has not come up in my game - SI/FS are not allowed, yet, because I have not done the rules rewrite they desperately need). I have posted it on the forums on multiple occasions. Orks are 35 BP, Oni are 30.

Bullshit. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to force them to cost equal or greater amounts than their parent type, if their benefits are less &/or drawbacks are greater.

Not doing that causes the extremely silly situation of everyone plying the cheapest metavariant with the most inconsecutial negative qualities.
ie. why would you play orc, when oni is just better in any way, you get all the same bonuses with no real negatives.
So some metavariant would be significantly more common then their parent metatypes and thats just silly.

Failing of said negative qualities, not of the race in question.

Distinctive Style is not a minor negative - a significant positive modifier for anyone attempting to identify your character or track you based on description makes Oni easily worse than Orks, thus the reason they should have a lower cost.

As far as player characters are concerned, not at all. They are by definition outside the norm, & the usual labels of common, rare, unusual, etc. do not apply.

If by 'more common' you mean that players are more likely to select them for their characters, that's not really a point since PC groups generally fall well outside of all statistical norms for the setting. Beyond that, some metavariants are more common than their standard metatype among certain ethnic groups. From RC, we find that Oni should be more common than regular Orks among ethnic Japanese. Now if you want to take the next step and assign a rarity (and BP cost) for Japanese ethnicity...

How do they cost 30BP if they get distinctive style, shouldn't that make them even cheaper.


So your saying that it's perfectly logical for all shadowrunning orcs to be onis.

Because they cost 25 points base, plus they have an effective "distinctive style" like drawback (Striking Skin Pigmentation = 5 points) that do not get BPs for.

So an effective cost of 30 BPs all things considered.

I'll believe it when I see it. But I've got a hunch that all you've done is make the numbers more consistent. That doesn't make them objectively right, because there's no law out there that says consistent numbers are better than inconsistent. It's just the way you feel about it.



You're just proving my point. Absolutely no reason? The other side has no valid arguments? You have the fervor of a religious zealot, that is to say, your arguments are based on faith and opinion, not objective reason. There is no possible conclusion to this debate because there are no right or wrong answers in an arbitrary system like RPG mechanics. There are just answers you like and answers you don't, and that differs from person to person. Calling the answer you like "right" or "better" is meaningless, because it wouldn't be for someone who disagrees with you.

*has only read 1st page*

Real life isn't balanced. If it was it wouldn't be interesting.
The point is that although you may be less powerful than UberMcPowergamer over there you are still playing and possibly RPG-ing which is what its all about at the end of the day.

Really?

You don't think the developers have put in a significant amount of effort to try and make the system as consistent as possible? You don't think a vast majority of players are looking for consistency in the rules of the games they play?

Isn't that a major goal of a functioning system, to implement a high level of consistency?

Otherwise, what's the point?

Just have a random dice roll decide how many BPs individual options cost and save countless man hours working out the technicalities of the system.

What I think actually happened, is that a handful of 5~10 point mistakes were made (and occasionally some larger mistakes).

Not a very big deal all things considered, but definitely has nothing to do with some obscure directive of being purposefully inconsistent to demonstrate that the developers need answer to no one.

It's one goal. But people here are saying that it's the only goal. Other considerations might involve diversity, for instance. In the past, the vast majority of people have played elves and humans because they're not ugly like trogs. But now orks and trolls are comparatively less expensive, making more people want to play them. The points incentive balances out a fluff consideration, that people usually prefer not to play ugly characters (not to mention how those characters will be subject to significant in-game racism), and that makes the game more diverse. That's a policy decision you may or may not agree with, but that's the only basis to object to it -- opinion. If you'd rather have a game that focused only on being consistent and didn't take anything else into account, that's fine. But recognize that it's your preference, not some kind of absolute rule. I mean honestly, are you people really suggesting that there is a set of absolute rules to follow when designing chargen? If so, why do you know them, and the devs don't? The fact that they follow a different set of rules and yet they are professional game designers shows that there is more than one school of thought. Reasonable minds can differ. Please stop pretending like you have a direct line to god that gives you all the answers.

I mean honestly, this should be an easy argument for me to win. My only point is "you don't have a monopoly on some kind of absolute objective truth." Are you guys refusing to concede even that much? You are not willing to admit that your opinions are just opinions, and not objective fact with which nobody could disagree? Seriously?

Hey guys! I got a great idea!

House-rule that Oni get the Goring Horns positive quality!

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Racial costs have never being in any way consistant in the SR4, so why are you demanding it now.

And yet nobody has ever even wanted to play an Oni in my games, and people routinely play the metavariants with the highest BP cost, citing the following reasoning:

[Metavariant]s are totally bad ass! I'm going to play a [metavariant] [runner type]!

Thing is, those of us arguing the BP cost for Oni are arguing based on the rest of the system that's been presented to us by the devlopers.

We're not citing any absolute rule set, were citing the rule set the game is based on.




Of course not. And that's not what I'm saying even remotely.

It has nothing to do with our opinion, we're going by the rules as they have been laid out in every book in the SR4 system which are generally quite consistent internally - which is what gives threads like this life as the players/customers nitpick and discuss why there is the occasional, random, inconsistent decision.




I'm not demanding anything.

But to answer why we are discussing it, there was SR4 and now there is SR4A.

Many of the changes that make SR4A what it is, were born from customer feedback (a good deal from Dumpshock I imagine).

The devs are cool enough to interact with us here, follow some of the discussions and even give us feedback.

Hence a major facet of this forum's appeal is a connection to the developers of the game. That should answer your question "why" I think.

See, maybe you could give me some citations? I look at the build point system, especially racial costs, and I think "arbitrary." I don't see any real thread of consistency. In fact, the one consistent rule for metavariants is that they cost at least 5 points more than their parent race. So unless you were to rewrite all the metavariant build costs, making Oni cost less than orks would actually be inconsistent with the very limited consistency we already have.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm no longer talking about "good" or "bad." Why do fomori and gnomes get Arcane Arrester for 5 points? Why do Oni and Night Ones get nothing at all for 5 points? There are rational arguments why these costs should be adjusted. But it's not because they're "right" costs or "wrong" costs. It's just because people would prefer to see such an advantage coming at greater cost, because they subjectively believe that all racial costs should incorporate the costs of any edges/flaws the race come with just as if you were buying them from chargen. Obviously, the devs thought that this shouldn't be the case, and I can't really explain why. All I'm saying is that we should start discussing what we like and dislike and stop smacking each other in the face with Truth. If you just prefaced statements with "I dislike this" or "In my opinion, it's far too inconsistent," discussions would be a lot more civil. If people think that you respect their position, then they are willing to have a nice conversation with you. And nobody needs to argue for days and days until they feel like they "won." It's when you come out with an Argument of Absolute Truth that Only Retards Would Disagree With that you start fights. I know this is the internet, but that shouldn't be an excuse for being obnoxious.

And yet, the rules set presented states that Oni cost 5 points more than an Ork... seems pretty consistent to me...