Sorry, it's another RPG system I've gotten into lately.
Will attempt to dissect the rest of this post after dinner.

Show me where I ever directly compared the two. I asked why you'd ever use Mob Mind instead of Stun/Mana/Powerball, yes. That's not a direct comparison, it's a value judgement.

You're asking for a direct, force-to-force comparison. It's totally ludicrous. Among other things, there is literally no reason whatsever to ever cast a Force 2 Stunbolt unless you only have 1 Magic.

Ah, but a Force 2 Control Thoughts can eliminate a target. Takes a (minimum) Force 5 Stunbolt to do the same.

Depends on what you were looking for as a resolution anyway. As you've show the mage scared off 10 gogangers, whereas 4 PCs probably couldn't have done that with firepower. At least, not without sustaining injuries.

What if they were hired to take the PCs out anyway?

Really? 4 PCs couldn't scare off 10 gangers without sustaining injuries? What kind of gimps do you play with? The ganger grunts have 6 initiative. They carry around drugs, so they can get 2 passes, but still, they're quite slow. They have 3 body and 6 armor, 6 attack dice (a big 7 with a melee weapon)... One streetsam with an airburst grenade launcher could take them out in one initiative pass. 4 guys with full auto weapons could do it too -- each full burst can hit 3 gangers, counting as a short burst. A short burst from an AR with ExEx ammo does 9P -2AP. The gangers have an average 2 hits to resist, and they have 10 boxes of physical damage, so the attackers need 3 net hits to kill them outright, which is 4 total hits since the ganers have 3 defense dice and no dodge skill. And if all you wanted was to scare them away, some sniper fire or suppressive fire from cover would take care of that. And let's not think about what a rigger with an armored vehicle or heavy drone would do to them.

The point is, the strategy you suggest, defeating some gangers by making 2 of them attack the others, is not going to work unless the gangers are mindless automatons who aggro any hostile opponents and fight until they're dead. Per RAW, that would never happen, since they have Professional rating of 1 and would flee as soon as half of them are down. And per GM discretion, if they know that two of their good friends are being magically controlled (which they probably would if their best buddies attacked them for no reason) they'll run away rather than fight them. It would be a lot more efficient to attack them directly, whether with an AoE combat spell, a spirit, a drone, some grenades, or all of the above. Mob Mind is only going to be really useful for achieving things other than carnage. You can make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, like desert their post or give you their weapons, or issue you security clearance, or something. If you want them dead, Mob Mind is a bad tool because of how abominably high its drain code is.

"Gangers" was an example. It wasn't meant to be anything other than a generic "something you shoot."

I think anything too weak to have magical support would have the same principal apply equally. Airburst grenade launchers are marvelous tools. By the time you get up to stronger opponents where 4 PCs couldn't do the job, they're likely to have counterspelling support, and Mob Mind is out the window. The point is, it's never the best tool for the job when the job is to kill people because of its high drain.

Having your friends shoot you in the back without warning tends to really, really successful at putting a major hurt on you. In the first 6 seconds about 8 guys are dead. I'd expect the survivors are kind of injured. Oh, and the mage gets it first.

Would you then institute a drain code for shooting people? Like your fingers and eyes get tired from pulling the trigger or aiming?

Would there also be some balancing extra attribute you'd need to raise to be able to shoot people?

This is an artificial distinction in actual game play. When have you ever seen an actual PC combat mage with less than 3 Magic?

I got one with a "2", but then, because he is a combat mage he would still use a Force 4 Effect... But I do uinderstand what you are getting at...

And it is Very Artificial, as it will cause you (the mage) less trouble to just shoot your opponent rather than using that Force 2 Control Thoughts. On the questionable chance that it actually works, after all, you do not know the "stats" of the opposition, and it could get you very dead if you guess wrong... This is where the verisimilitude of the world comes into play... I don't know about you, but my character is not gonna bet his life on the effects of a Force 2 Control Thoughts/Mob Mind spell possibly taking effect... not knowing whether the opposition has any possible magical support... Remember, no matter your dice pool, you will still only get 2 successes to apply... are you gonna be willing to bet your life that it will be enough? I'm not...

Opionions vary though...

So since the mage ISN'T commanding them to fill him full of lead, and he's NOT going to allow that thought to enter their minds as he as seized control of it... how would they a) be able to form the thought and act upon it? and b) know who and where the mage is?

And what is the drain code on your stun bolt there?

The point is that the mage ISN'T controlling all 10 people. He's controlling 2 of them to kill the other 8.

The other 8 are not controlled as they were out of the area of effect... (2 Meter Radius is NOT that big after all)

Fluff aside, the Control Thoughts spell REQUIRES Commands to implement actions... No Command, then the character is in his own right to do what he wants until commanded otherwise...

There are several interpretations to the spell; I come in on the side of No commands to the contrary equals control of my own thoughts and actions until otherwise directed...

A lot less than the Control Thoughts/Mob Mind spell is... at Force 5 the Stun would be (DV1), the Force 2 Command Thoughts is still DV3...

You tell me which will be more effective...

The controlled targets still have free will until the controlling mage takes a Simple Action to tell them not to do anything. [and thus revoke free will]

I had an idea... a variation on Silence/Hush... load rating 1 linguasofts so you can no longer easily understand anyone's speech worth a damn. With a rating 1 lingusoft and logic of 3 you'd have an easy time understanding "do nothing" but something complex like "use your most effective form of crowd control on those opposing the ravenswood lodge starting with the most senior and well armed leader and then going after those with the lowest essence" or anything exceeding a high school level language student would probably get muddled and misacted on IF the target even thought he understood the command.

Sure, there is a myriad of degrees but the idea seems sound... ;-)

This is interesting...Though I would go with the Mental Communication providing understanding at the very least... it seems to fit the fluff better (That whole "Must Obey" seems to get around language barriers, though the command would still need to be worded somewhat precisely to get the result that was desired)

For example..."Shoot your partner" could be interpreted to just take a shot at your partner with no regards to competence (no use of specialties or Smartlink for example) while "Kill your Partner" could be interpreted to take the best shot you are capable of (but because you want me to kill him, I subtract the 8 dice from my pool for his basic Armor and another -3 for the Head Shot and -4 more for extra damage, for a total of -15 Dice)... in either case, I have done exactly what was commanded with respect to the action ordered, though in both cases, I will probably not hit with any degree of reliance, or have more than a single actual die left with which to make the attack with...

It is because of this issue that I think that Control Thoughts/Mob Mind Spells are a POOR option for a combat specific result...

Also, please remember that a GM is well within his rights to limit what commands are actually given to something reasonable... elaborate communication (even at mental speeds) tends to take a LOT longer than the typical 1-3 seconds given in any combat Pass/Turn... if you are giving commands that have to be explained to comprehend, then it is probably taking to long to really matter...


My Two Cents...

You can't take more than 1 kind of called shot at a time.

Says Where? Page 149-150 in BBB is not really very clear, though you could rationalize that viewpoint...

Fluff-be-damned, they are too powerful as written. Making them even more powerful doesn't add to game balance. Then again, I run (and play) by RAW as much as possible so I guess if you run a houserule-heavy game where mind control is encouraged sure you could allow it to include Mindlink for free and Translate for free.

No arguments there, just pointing out that it is not overed by the rules, so any change to the contrary would in itself be a houserule...

hi hi

How about breaking the game in another manner. What happens when two mages cast control thoughts on the same person? If they give the person conflicting commands, what does the person do?

Its implied in SR4A, p161. The only CLEAR exclusion I found was SR4A, p171 where it says a called shot can affect vehicle armor or passenger armor but not both.

Maybe... Thanks Wasabi...

It Always seemed to me that it would be beneficial to bypass armor (say -9 for Helmet and Tactical Armor) and target he head for extra Damage as well (-4) for a total of -14... Of course, if you are able to connect (generally with a sniper style character, out of combat) it is pretty gruesome... but then again, not being able to stack works just as well too... that -9 is still pretty brutal as a negative modifier... Especially if you only have 10-12 dice to attack with...

I only used this example to demonstrate that Commands in this regard are ambiguous and can be "circumvented" by "creative" interpretation... This style of command interpretation is not contradicted by the RAW and is perfectly acceptable as far as I can tell, as it is a valid interpretation of the rules...