Smokeskin, would you really give a player a -4 called shot penalty and not let +2 specialization apply to someone using capoeria?

Even if you don't like that style, this is exceptionally harsh.

You've just made a professional fighter (level 3) on the same footing as a guy that has never thrown a punch in his life.

Well boxers are trained how to fight more than almost any martial art as it is usually taught. They might not be trained specifically against kicks but its not like a kick is a mysterious power. Boxers by the way generally deliver the most force in there strikes than any other martial art.(though boxing is generally intended as a sport, I'd say if you bought it through unarmed combat you are trained in using it for combat/self defense). People like to belittle boxers speed and talent a lot, but most "fast" martial arts aren't really delivering much of there mass into the blow, boxers are trained in how to put most if not all of there mass into a punch making them devastating.

This doesn't mean boxers are supreme, like every martial art they have strengths and weaknesses. It is one of the most focused martial arts so in MMA tournaments it will fail against people with more diverse training. It is kind of a flaw in SR, but a boxer under the current rules might be Unarmed combat 5(7)boxing. But a more accurate depiction might be unarmed combat 3(7boxing), where as someone with mixed training but focused in a specific martial art would have the general 5 in unarmed combat and a specialization.

(amrchair knowledge of my art is supreme added to make some people happy, though this isn't the krav maga thread.)

As a side note smokeskin is somewhat right by the rules, but also wrong. There is a difference in not giving the specialization bonus because it doesn't fit your style, your punching with aikido, kicking with boxing, and its another thing to assign penalties because your armchair knowledge of a martial art makes you think it is inferior. A better way to use the rules would be to not allow the specialization bonus from capoeria when you don't have wide open spaces to capitalize in your moves or you may require somewhat stable terrain. I suspect this problem extends beyond martial arts though and for many groups. How many armchair computer nerds, gun nuts, scientists, bring there current day knowledge and inflict it upon the game world with modifiers galore because they know best.

If he gives the bonus to damage with the called shot penalty it might not be too bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The game rules already exist for all these problems.

Specialization not applying? They don't get the +2 bonus (you do not apply penalties, you simply revoke the bonus)

In the case of say a Boxer vs a Muay Thai? Boxer gets his normal +2 specialization to attack, but on defense it only applies on punches and not on kicks from said Muay Thai, as he is not used to using his speed and blocks against them. He is still a trained fighter, his specialization simply doesn't cover the circumstance.

If you have to penalize your players for wanting to play more interesting character ideas... I'm sorry, that does not make your game "more realistic", it makes you a weak GM.

This actually reminds me of why I hate SR specializations. Other than character concept why would anyone specialize in boxing vs muay thai? Muai Thai gets everything boxing does and it works for kicks and punches, and this isn't even getting into something like kung fu which has pretty much everything in it to some degree. It is like the SA specialization of pistols vs revolvers, they cover way to varying of a range for no real benefit of the narrower range specializations. Unarmed combat specializations should have been, defense, grappling, striking and that is it.

Now I in fact did specialize in boxing for my first SR character so character concept does hold sway, and realistically it did not limit me since I choose my strikes to be punches all the time, and with counterstrike and 5 points in combat sense and a 7 reaction I rolled more than enough dice on defense so losing 2 dice to kicks did not matter. Still if I had chosen muay thai I would of been better off at the same cost.

Aikido is quite useful in applying a painful hold against someone giving you lip. Controlling agitated people who aren't really willing to put up a fight is part of being a cop. That doesn't make it an effective combat style - it won't work against a determined opponent, unless there's a huge skill gap.

What I do is let the player pick either 2 of the following to apply against unarmed single opponents, or 1 to apply to also multiple and/or armed opponents:

Attack
Defense (including against take down)
Grappling
1st round of melee

Muai thai would be Attack and Defense, BJJ could be Defense and Grappling, MMA Attack and Grappling, Krav Maga 1st round melee all opponents or Defense all opponents.

What I said was, I wouldn't allow capoeira specialization bonuses to apply to fighting, but if they insisted on using capoeira moves, I'd hit them with a called shot penalty (and they'd also get their spec so a net -2 dice). That isn't modifiers galore, that is way of letting a player do something flashy at the cost of effectiveness.

I can't say I have much direct experience with capoeira. There was a guy in my Krav Maga class that had done capoeira, and I've sparred with him, and he never used any capoeira moves, even though it was the only martial arts he knew well. I have a decent amount of sparring experience, and the fact that I can't imagine it being effective, never heard anyone speak of it as effective, does that count for something? How about that no one seems to be able to present anything that even indicates capoeira being effective? So far, the only thing we have is an MMA fight where a complete rookie gets KOed by a spinning backkick. With all the fight statistics and online videos and whatnot available, don't you think it is quite telling that there isn't any decent capoeira fighters amongst them? I found someone mentioned a few places as the best capoeira fighter in MMA, and I watched about 10 minutes of videos of him, and he didn't do a single thing that looked like capoeira - so he knows lots of capoeira and don't use it in fights, why could that be?

I've done martial arts for 4 years, for 2 of them I sparred regularly, and I've done a solid effort of trying to find any info pointing to someone succeeding with capoeira and failed to find anything, on the contrary I've found capoeira experts NOT using capoeira in fights. If you want to call that armchair knowledge, then what do you call the people here who haven't done any fighting, can't find any facts to support this claimed competitiveness of capoeira, and even post a video of a total amateur getting KOed by a capoeira practioneer as if it demonstrated anything?

I have practiced Capoeira for several years on and off.
Capoeira in its modern incarnation is commonly taught and practiced more as a sport than as a Martial Art. Capoeira, if learned with the intent of fighting rather than play, is a very effective combat style.
A similar case would be Wushu and Kung Fu. Wushu is a competitive exhibition art that follows a model close to gymastics, whereas pure Kung Fu is practical, succinct and effective.
Capoeira specifically has very few schools internationally that teach it as a fighting art. Part of the reason is due to cultural/traditional stigmas within the community from when it was outlawed in Brazil.

Every Capoeirista that fights effectively in MMA that I have seen in a video has been from Axe Capoeira. The element that you see that doesn't look like Capoeira in those videos is just Capoeira adapted for a confined space, the boxing ring or octagon cage. Capoeira's basic movement comprises of circles and triangles. The technique used to adapt is adopting a stance to mimic the circles and triangles normal capoeira moves generate.

Outside of that confined situation The wider motions and stances often seen are a bonus when trying to herd and coral opponents, but gymnastics and excessively flashy moves will still be detrimental in a real fight.

Capoeira does not require jumping, handstands, etc to be effective.
I am fond of a move that combines a sidestep into an arcing head sweep called the quexada.
It is a basic move that uses evasion and counterattacking. It is easily done from a standing ready position.

Hopefully, this is informative or helpful.

As a Brazilian, i did some research over capoeira when i was on college (i am on the middle of a Masters degree on it by the way), and i found very interesting things on perserved newspapers from 2 centuries ago on colonial Brasil. It's a full half page report on how a slave escaped to a slave stronghold, after beating the crap of 4 armed thugs with capoeira moves in front of witnesses. Okay, the capitães-do-mato (overseers) were not kung-fu or krav magá trained, but they were four. All that happened well before capoeira became modernized as a sport. I wish i could scan the document, but it is held on Rio de Janeiro for the document's preservation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've trained in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, San Shou Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Northern Long-Fist Kung Fu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Tai Chi, BJJ, Boxing, and I even sparred with a Capoeirista in high school. Does this mean that I'm some sort of bad-ass hand to hand fighter? Of course not, but I can tell you what an old wise martial arts guru once told me when it comes to which style is the best.

"Whatever way you choose to climb the mountain, the view is the same for everyone at the top"

What is BJJ? Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?

And you have gleaned this information exactly how? In my experience, it works right nice for those "determined opponents" that you are talking about; skilled opponents just take a bit longer to control, that is all...

Keep the Faith

Did you ever think that he did not use his Capoeira moves/knowledge on you because it was a KRAV MAGA CLASS and not a Capoeira class? And from your tone, it appears that you are the final authority on what constitues a Capoeira move... so I guess this discussion is completed...

Keep the Faith

Yup

I find your tone presumptuous and offensive! Your claims are not backed by anything at all much less video footage of professional fighters.

I challenge you to a Super Street Fighter 2 duel to the death!

Actually, no other fighters in Shadowrun use kicks unless they use the Kick Attack maneuver.

Yeah I'd call that armchair knowledge. Heck even if you were in the MMA I'd call that armchair knowledge. Unless you are a capoeira expert it is armchair knowledge. You are taking your limited experience and applying it to a fictional game world with no idea if the system was or is different than what you currently envision. Virtually everyone I game with is a computer nerd or engineer, I'd have the same issues if they were handing out penalties to the cracking skill based on there "expert" knowledge on hacking from today, especially since none of them are hackers though they are somewhat acquainted with them.

And since the other people here who may or may not know less than you about capoeira aren't taking a stance to gimp someone because of there knowledge and instead just keep the dice as they are I don't have an issue with them. You are the one taking the affirmative stance to add extra mods due to your real world knowledge and how that will pan out in this fictional universe. You got the burden of proof so to speak.

@Smokeskin
Why should I waste my Time searching for Videos in the Web ?
I surely can't do this on my working Time and my Freetime is to Precious for that.
I won't end up like this
http://xkcd.com/386/
Especially not for You
since you don't bother to answer my questions
and since you're a....

I would spent the time for somebody reasonable, someone with whom a discussion would be beneficial
but with you ....its Fruitless

Hough!
Medicineman

As I wrote, it was sparring, the krav maga style doesn't even really apply to that. And of course he'd use the moves he knows, that's the point - to train your peak fighting ability against skilled opponents.

When you are strong, appear weak.

Personal experience of trying to apply hand holds to people who actively resist. Both during training, and in real life. I've used it to control a few people with success, and I've taken a hook to the jaw by someone who objected strongly to it (a girl, no less). If I somehow ended up holding someone's hand, there's a good chance I'd twist it around, but that would probably be to get in position for an elbow strike. In real life, you can't just grab someone's hand or get them to jump on your hip (again, unless there's such a huge skill gap that you could beat your opponent with even ineffective techniques).

I have an uncle that's a cop. He's shown me several nasty finger grips and leg holds when we played around a bit, they use them for controlling drunk people, at demonstrations, and such. He was taught boxing at the police academy for serious fighting (and using the stick of course).

I trained krav maga with several police officers and people at the police academy (here in Denmark, it takes 3 years to become a cop iirc). These days, they're not teaching boxing to cops anymore but jiu jitsu. Anything that doesn't warrant drawing the stick, they're supposed to take people down - punching them in the face is apparently bad PR.



What experience is it you have with this? I've never heard any suggest aikido or even aikido-like techniques for serious fights.

When you say it takes longer to control, I assume you mean longer compared to other techniques like punches and kicks, BJJ takedowns etc.? Aren't we then again back to an ineffective style which, in SR terms imo should be interpreted as the specialization not applying to fights?

Yeah, capoeira and aikido practitioners have been lulling us into a false sense of security for centuries (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Geeze dude. You really sure do know everything about anything, don't you? You know how Capoeira will evolve in the next 60 years, in an imaginary world (because modern Capoeira is exactly the same as 100 years ago, don't-ya-know), you know how effective police officers are (and that they are only effective against ineffective individuals), you know how a "Good GM" operates his game, and you know better than -everyone- on this board regarding martial arts. Someday, I hope someone I (don't) like has your level of knowledge.


No. Your imagination is weak. And you have heard speak of it's effectiveness; people in this thread keep saying it.

I got a question for you. In a boxing ring, what martial art do you think is most effective?

While you think hard on that question, here's some info for you. Any given martial art will be best in the situation it was developed for. MMA is not the end-all-be-all of fighting. It's a sport. A nasty sport, but still a sport. Do you remember a few years back, when anyone who was someone HAD to know grappling, because grappling was the super technique(s) that would forever win? I've watched a few matchings recently; seems that a lot of dudes are punching and kicking for major portions of the match. Can you figure out why?

The martial arts adapted. They stopped falling easily to sucker moves they hadn't experienced previously.

Oh, and you sparred with 1 guy who was in a class with you. Sweet. Obviously because that one dude didn't utilize his capoeira, it proves your point. Game and match I guess.

If capoeira evolves to be something different, then we're not talking capoira as we know it, but something that evolved out of it. I even specifically mentioned that if someone had a backstory of "capoeira brutalis" that developed into an effective martial art, that was something I could work with.

Yes, I've talked with and trained with actual police officers and police academy students, they are taught techniques to pacify agitated people and other techniques against people determined to fight.

I've repeatedly asked for someone to demonstrate any sort of validation of the effectiveness of capoeira. No one has come forward with anything but that video of a rookie getting KOed by a spinning back kick. I can't find anything on the internet, and from my time training MA I haven't heard of anyone talking about capoeira as something that works. Why doesn't anyone present such info, if they're right and I'm wrong? Could it be that perhaps I really am right?

You're also forgetting the guy who posted here that he'd participated in MMA tournaments and found capoeira fighters to be the easiest to beat. So I don't know better than -everyone-.



I haven't heard people with MA experience speak of its effectiveness. I keep asking where they get this info, or what their experience is, and then they get all vague. I suspect they have neither practical nor theoretical knowledge. If they do, bring it forward, I've asked for it several times. I've found capoeira experts who don't use capoeira when they fight, no one replied to that. The video everyone liked so much, no one spotted how poor skill the opponent had, and now they just ignore it.

Please, present some actual arguments - there must be a reason why you think capoeira is effective.



That's how the metagame often works. A tactic is found to dominate, everyone starts focusing on using it and countering opponents using it - this makes other tactics dominant.

If we want to model that, we'll need something much more intricate than SR rules. For now, I'm content with simply playing with flashy, ineffective combat styles getting +2 spec dice. I want a realistic game, so you're not going to be supereffective at beating people up with capoeira or aikido or shotokan karate.




I'm honest about my experience, I don't have much direct experience with capoeira. I see no reason to either lie or be vague about it. For me, the most obvious sign is that the style is rather popular in many places around the world, including where I live, but you never seem to see anyone fighting with it.

You're also overlooking a logical problem here. If a style is totally inefficient, full contact fighters won't ever get to fight against it because people that style don't use it for sparring. If capoeira is actually inefficient, that would precisely mean I wouldn't get many if any chances to face it.