Wow...Why are you guys even still arguing with D2F on this. It is obvious all he is interested in is the RAW. It is obvious that he does not believe in interpreting rules that are fuzzy in any other way than his. It seems kinda obvious that he has never read a book outside of a SR book that deals with Astral perception or astral travel. And lastly....This debate soooo does not answer the OP's question. I only read this thread because I wanted to see how other GMs interpreted this rules fuzziness. But I got the comedy script of a lifetime.

Instead of quoting old books and stuff couldn't some one just theorize that maybe they stopped making the distinction between optics is because it didn't really matter anymore? Maybe the tech had achieved something much better than it was in previous editions. Since they do advance the tech and stuff as they keep writing stuff.

In my game I am just going to let the mages use their optically enhanced shades as normal because frankly....It Looks damn cool when the artist in our group draws everyone.


And one last thing D2F, My 4th edition book never once refers to Astral Perception as astral sight in that section. And according to the definition of Perception: the act or faculty of apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding. The glasses and the Contacts would not block astral perception.

But hey, it is your game, do what ever you want.

I still want to read how other GM's deal with the OP's question.

Not that hard to grasp, as I specifically said so. I even said that we won't meet common ground and I also said they should stop arguing with me if they are interested in arguing about house rules.


Wrong assumption. I had my fair share of an esoteric phase. Read up on astral projection, dream voyage, meeting your totem, ect. I was completely into it at that time. And I do understand where their interpretations come from.

However, those are not SR sources. SR is influenced by those sources, correct, but the ruling is not guided by those sources. They have less impact on SR rules than even the fluff sections in a SR sourcebook.

That's why I refuse to accept them as the basis for an argument. Itis literally the same as arguing that "according to Celtic lore, Banshees are spirits of dead women and are therefore not affected by nor carry the HMHVV".



"Vision" is the guiding theme in astral perception, as far as SR is concerned. That is not proof to support my assumption, but merely context. It also uses references to "ligh sources" on the astral plane, further supporting the "vision" theme.

Most importantly, however is that cover from physical objects works the same way on the astral plane. That requires a comparable relative orientation as the physical senses to remain true. Again, that is not a ruling, either, but the basis of my assumption.

There is no direct RAW reference that supports either assumption, neither yours, nor mine, nor anyone else's in that regard. Otherwise I would have simply quoted that section and be done with it.
My argument is a logical argument in nature and utilizes basic argumental logic to come to the most probable conclusion.


I let my players use it, as long as it is a visual aid in nature. That excludes things like Ultrasound and Ultrawideband radar. I don't see much of a balancing concern to not allow them to use Thermographic vision or Low Light vision, when thy could simply use astral perception for a comparable effect in the first place. It is an unnescessary hassle on the players in my opinion.
On a somewhat realted sidenote: I let them cast through glasses, while astrally perceiving as well.

Now that's comedy.

No, it's a house rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Is it? I thought glass (and other transparent materials) were "astrally transparent" as well. Otherwise, you'd have a darn hard time building a lucifer lamp. Hell, apparently you can even make an "astral lens", since there's ways to take photos of astral impressions.

You are mistaken.

Which I have problems with as Astral Preception is a psychic sense, not a visual one. Thus visual aids do NOT block Astral Perception IMO.

Modern day psychics describe what they 'see' as a feeling or impression; some describe it as a picture in their mind or seeing with the mind's eye rather than the body's.

The descriptors for Astral Perception in SR4 all use visual as a descriptor because we are visual creatures in RL. Yet it ALSO clearly spells out that Astral Perception is NOT a visual sense but a psychic one that is perceived using the Mind, not the Eyes.

Because he can't even get that right as previously demonstrated? He only uses the "RAW" when he finds a sentence he likes. He otherwise ignores it, but still claims he's using it. Case in point: The astrally perceiving bacteria which is 100%, indisputable "RAW."

The simple fact is the rules clearly and undeniably say that you can use astral perception when you're blind. It doesn't say "when your eyes are damaged and you can no longer see." It doesn't say "when the optical connection between your eyes and your brain are damaged and you can no longer see as a result." It doesn't say "when you're blind, but only if something isn't blocking your eye sockets." It doesn't say "when you're blind, but only sometimes when it suits D2F's stupid interpretation of this rule." It says "when you're blind." Note the period. Considering that wearing a blindfold makes you blind, by definition, and that the rules specifically say that you can still use astral perception in such a scenario, somehow I doubt a pair of contact lenses or a pair of glasses are going to miraculously block your astral perception. Not that it should matter because the "RAW" tells you that you can still use it when blind.

And, frankly, when these "RAW" idiots go around demanding that you adhere to their retarded views and anyone who doesn't is utterly wrong and stupid, it pisses me off. Especially when they're so painfully and tragically wrong to boot, and/or include a "but you can do whatever you want in your games, just don't bring house rules here." Screw them.

Nevermind that it includes the equivalence of hearing, touch, and even smell in some descriptions of the rules. I know how often I use my eyes to smell people.

Go one step further with his supposition... put goggles on a ghoul. Now the ghoul is blind...

Think about that for a few moments...

Back yet? Yes? Good.

Here's the real occam's razor: Why make a magemask if all it takes to blind someone on the Physical & Astral is a set of opaque glasses or contacts?

Because they can shake their head to remove the glasses. The magemask is a little more robust, strapped on, and also makes it hard for them to concentrate by filling their ears with loud static.

(Not that I think that having glasses block astral sight is a good idea. Just popping in to answer the question.)

Because a magemask does a lot more than just prevent spellcasting. Surprised you didn't know that.

But you will note that there is nothing in the description of how a mage mask operates that indicates it blocks astral perception. It only mechanically does the following.

"Actions that a magician normally performs automatically,
like astral projection, require a Willpower + Intuition (4) Test."

Given that, someone could actually astrally perceive with the mask on.

In any case, I find the claim that the mere presence of a small astrally opaque object in the near vicinity of someone's eyeballs makes it impossible for someone to astrally perceive to be completely unsupported by RAW.

Yes, by RAW the glasses/contacts/goggles are traditionally opaque to astral perception, but that they have the power to turn off someone's astral perception by their physical location in relation to someone's eyes is totally unsupported.

It might work if the astral perceiver was entirely encased in a giant lens.

Like in the case of a magemask?

SR4A, p. 191: "Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character’s physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can “hear” in astral space."

There's RAW for you. Deal with it.

The main reason I'd never rule that a player was 'blinded' astrally by his sunglasses has nothing to do with the supposed location of the Astral Sense in the body

I'd never rule that way, cos it's stupid.




-karma

Well as far as the magemask goes. It stop spell casting because it blocks line of sight if I recall. Since , and correct me if I am wrong on this, You cannot target the real world from the astral unless there are specific circumstances.

Hell the static thing is just silly to me. I can meditate in the middle of a loud nightclub and do complex mathematics. Or does the static portion just give you modifiers. I forget and I am too lazy to get a book down.

As DireRadiant mentioned a short while ago, it gives you a Wil+Int (4) test to do anything requiring concentration.

Which just covers the head, and allows the wearer to do things they normally can do as long as they meet the threshold test. The mage mask does not entirely encase the mage.

"Actions that a magician normally performs automatically,
like astral projection, require a Willpower + Intuition (4) Test." Arsenal p. 66

You will note the example of astral projection.

Of course you can claim it doesn't specifically say astral perception, but astral perception is an action that a magician can normally perform, similar to how astral projection is something a magician can normally perform.

Since shifting to astral perception is a simple action, and astrally projecting requires a complex action, you could consider that shifting perception is actually easier (Though really all you can say is that it takes less time) then completely projecting.

"A Simple Action allows a magician to shift perception to or from astral
space. Actual astral projection requires a Complex Action." SR4A p. 179

I'm well ware of what a magemask can do given that I've been playing since SR1.

For what it's worth, your position on goggles/glasses/contacts is unsupported throughout the editions of Shadowrun. They simply CANNOT block the user's Astral Perception simply because they are opaque on the Astral.

To block being perceived with Astral Perception, one must have sufficient cover to hide behind AND prevents any part of you from being seen, heard, or otherwise perceived. Alternatively, there must be enough stuff obscuring the Astral Perception of the user (lots of mana, auras, lots of people, etc).

In a way, Astral Perception is much like Superman's senses. His senses are incredibly sharp. But he cannot see through lead. One episode made the mistake of putting the kidnap victim in a lead shielded room. But that didn't stop his other senses. He could still HEAR through lead without any problems. He just could not see through it.

Likewise, Astral Perception is a psychic sense (per RAW) which encompasses certain factors from all the normal senses but with an emotional slant. Thus the words on a sign don't mean much but the emotion they were written with speaks volumes.

Does a blindfold stop you from interpeting emotions? Does a mask?

Here's the explanation I gave my players when they asked about Astral Perception... The least problematic way to see (pardon the expression) Astral Perception is treat it like a visual sense that perceives Life, Auras, & Emotions rather than visible light from the EM Spectrum. It is affected by visual modifiers and the like BUT IS NOT Vision and does NOT come from the eyes but instead from the pyschic power of the Mage's mind. Thus hiding behind a wall helps to stop you from being perceived by Astral Perception just like it does against Perception (Physical Plane). Likewise blinding a person by stapling opaque contacts to their eyeballs doesn't stop their ability to astrally perceive.

One player said in return: "So it's just all the senses rolled into one, it detects life, emotion, and auras, and comes from the mind?"

If you want to block someone's Astral Perception, you need to ensure that none of the person you are attemption to block has any part of their person that is not under full cover. Toss the offending mage in a burlap bag or a locked coffin. No Astral Perception beyond the container for him unless he can poke a hole of some sort.

Don't forget though... such a container would NOT hold an Astrally Projecting mage at all. The Mage's form would pass right through the container without effort. Though he'd be unable to interact directly with the Physical, he could potentially get a spirit or two to come help him. A bound Mage is only slightly less dangerous (at best) than an unbound one. The best Mage prisoner is either drugged into a coma or implanted to ruin their Magic ability.

Here's a handy chart:

Vision = Eyes
Hearing = Ears
Taste = Tongue
Touch = Skin
Smell = Nose
Astral = Mind

Yes, cover works the same way. In SR if you are trying to perceive something in the "real" world and it is behind cover, you take a -2 modifier to your dice pool for "Interfering sight/odor/sound".

If the target (an as tral entity, present only on the astral plane) is behind the astral shadow of a storewindow, you cannot cast spells on it, because you don't see it.

The basis of my argument is the distance required for an interfering object to count as interfering. If the storewindow is 50m from you and the target is 1m behind it, he is blocked from your astral perception. Those are the RAW.
If the target is 500m behind the storewindow, he is STILL hidden from your astral perception, unless there is no roof above the storewindow.
If the storewindow is 1m in front of you and the target is 500m behind the storefront window (it's a really, REALLY large store), it would still be completely blocked from your astral perception (full cover = blind fire).
Now, if it is not a storewindow, but a steel beam that blocks LoS to the target, he would still be in cover. Cover is about LoS as much as it is about size, so the question is, at what distance do glasses (if any) become an obscuring obstacle in the LoS? That's the actual argument. How astral perception works, what organ (if any) is responsible, or how emotions are translated into perception while astrally paerceiving is not the issue. The only role they play in answering the question is how they influence the point of origin for your astral perception to validate whether LoS to the target can be established or whether it is fully or partially blocked by the shadow.
No, I cannot claim that the PoO is located at a position relative to the eyes, even though it is plausible, but neither can ANYONE claim to know where the PoO is.
However, it is relevant to know the PoO to properly assess the level of cover a target can call upon for defense.

I know a lot of people like to use the argument "well, it's magic". I don't accept "God did it" in a religious argument, either, so why would I (or anyone of sane mind) consider "it's magic" a viable, substantiated argument? It's an emotional argument, not a factual one and as such nil and void as a valid argument in ANY rational discussion.

Can I claim that my assumptions, related to the PoO of astral "vision" (related to targeting) are true? No. Neither can anyone else for their argument.
Also, astral perception is not just one astral sense, it is an amalgamation of multiple astral senses (otherwise astral shadows would be unable to block spell targeting). Neither the RAW nor the fluff contradict that. The description of astral perception includes "hearing" emotions, "feeling" emotions, "seeing" emotions (assensing), "tasting" emotions. Astral perception is a mystical reprsentation of the natural five senses in a psychic context. Not the means of perception changed, but the context (note: means of perception means the actual percept in this concext, not the physical stimuli or the reaction to them through physical receptors).

TLDR: At what distance from the astral body does an astral shadow become an obstacle for astral perception?

Enough to cover the entire body. And you provided the evidence when you said



Therefore unless it was completely in front of your entire body it would not block astral perception by your own explanation.

Also in the above you seem to want to use LoS as Line of Sight when in reality it is Line of Sense. When something not alive on the astral plane shows up as a solid object it means that you cannot sense through it. So if I hide behind a brick wall on the physical plane you cannot see me, but you can still hear me. On the astral plane you cannot sense me because the wall blocks your sensing. I could also be a mundane Troll and on the physical plane stand behind an Awakened Dwarf. You could see me on the physical plane but switch to astral perception and I would be blocked by the much brighter aura of the Dwarf.


Sure I can.



Different universal laws = not the same as the meat world. That states that astral "vision" does not come from the same area as meat vision.

Double post.....sorry

Is perception the same as line of sight? A perception test does not automatically fail if you do not have line of sight.

You say that it is relevant to know the PoO to properly assess the level of cover. Tell me, if someone had partial cover (up to 50% of his body behind something), would that change if the perceiver was a cyclops as opposed to a regular troll?

When you are trying to find something, are you standing perfectly still, or are you moving your head around, up and down, side to side? Where your eyes are at any given time is not going to be at the same place in space. How can the PoO of your "vision" going to make much of a difference if it comes from your forehead, a couple of inches away from your eyes?