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Cain
post May 27 2010, 03:43 AM
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OK, so the last thread got closed, but there's still more going on. Word is that the most recent documents were going to court on May 27. Does anyonehave any information on this?
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lehesu
post Jun 8 2010, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jun 8 2010, 03:18 PM) *
Jason did the same thing when AH released his self proofed drafts. Jason asked if the drafts were the ones that were edited by himself and other CGL staff. AH clarified that these were older drafts, edited by himself as he originally stated. Jason backed down.

Now AH calls Jason on using his original drafts in the publication of a book and Jason admits that's what happened and made a change to the PDF.

Who's acting without decorum?

This is exactly my point. This issue goes beyond AH vs JH, and it would be awesome if they would restrict their personal feud to a non-public venue. Since AH has been the person making active accusations, for the most part, the onus should be on him to do so, as the public nature pressures everyone involved to respond in public lest they look guilty. If AH is angry with JH, he can express that without offhandedly offending the other authors that continue to work for CGL.

*EDIT* Got ninja'd by the mods. My opinion has been made rather overabundantly clear, so its the last I'll speak of it. I'm not at all angry with AH; he had good reasons to do what he did. I just wish he would go about things more...delicately.
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Stahlseele
post Jun 8 2010, 08:30 PM
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Well . . for some, these Versions of the PDF might actually be something of a collectors edition O.o
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Ancient History
post Jun 8 2010, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (lehesu @ Jun 8 2010, 09:28 PM) *
This is exactly my point. This issue goes beyond AH vs JH, and it would be awesome if they would restrict their personal feud to a non-public venue. Since AH has been the person making active accusations, for the most part, the onus should be on him to do so, as the public nature pressures everyone involved to respond in public lest they look guilty. If AH is angry with JH, he can express that without offhandedly offending the other authors that continue to work for CGL.

0o. I made no accusations. I stated a fact. This fact was demonstrable, as I provided the exact text I was talking about. I never accused anyone of plagiarism, I said from the start I thought it was a sloppy copy in editing and I laid it on the person I thought was doing the editing: Jason. Yes, Jason and I have our differences. Including an exchange of e-mails where I expressed concerns about it and was assured (by Randall Bills) that this sort of thing wouldn't happen. It did happen, and now Jason is doing the right thing and fixing it.

I might be an asshole from time to time, but what exactly about this last little flurry makes me the bad guy?
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 8 2010, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jun 8 2010, 02:32 PM) *
I might be an asshole from time to time, but what exactly about this last little flurry makes me the bad guy?


Nothing, I will affirm this statement despite things in the past.

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JM Hardy
post Jun 8 2010, 08:47 PM
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Let me clarify the nature of the mistake, because as I reread my post the wording is a little unclear--Bobby's original draft had already been laid out. When the new file was ready for layout, the layout person, quite naturally, decided to reflow the new text over the old text. The new text did not contain any of Bobby's text, but in the reflowing process, some of the old text in the previous lay out was not deleted that should have been erased. To be clear--the new version that had been sent to layout did not contain the text in question.

Jason H.
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Fuchs
post Jun 8 2010, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE (lehesu @ Jun 8 2010, 10:28 PM) *
This is exactly my point. This issue goes beyond AH vs JH, and it would be awesome if they would restrict their personal feud to a non-public venue. Since AH has been the person making active accusations, for the most part, the onus should be on him to do so, as the public nature pressures everyone involved to respond in public lest they look guilty. If AH is angry with JH, he can express that without offhandedly offending the other authors that continue to work for CGL.

*EDIT* Got ninja'd by the mods. My opinion has been made rather overabundantly clear, so its the last I'll speak of it. I'm not at all angry with AH; he had good reasons to do what he did. I just wish he would go about things more...delicately.


No, if such mistakes are swept under the rug, we end up with more "Oh, didn't you know freelancers did not get paid for years?" situations. The worst thing one can do is to keep it private.
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macd21
post Jun 8 2010, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jun 8 2010, 09:49 PM) *
No, if such mistakes are swept under the rug, we end up with more "Oh, didn't you know freelancers did not get paid for years?" situations. The worst thing one can do is to keep it private.


No, worse than keeping it private is using it to score points against someone you have a personal grievance with. There's a difference between raising an issue and using it to tarnish someone's reputation. AH has mostly been careful to avoid outright accusations, but he's called JH a liar, made insinuations about plagiarism and blown a layout error way out of proportion. Turns out Hardy was telling the truth, AH's stuff wasn't ripped off and the layout error was a layout error.
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Fuchs
post Jun 8 2010, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (macd21 @ Jun 8 2010, 11:56 PM) *
No, worse than keeping it private is using it to score points against someone you have a personal grievance with. There's a difference between raising an issue and using it to tarnish someone's reputation. AH has mostly been careful to avoid outright accusations, but he's called JH a liar, made insinuations about plagiarism and blown a layout error way out of proportion. Turns out Hardy was telling the truth, AH's stuff wasn't ripped off and the layout error was a layout error.


Did we read the same thread? AH said it was his stuff, and a lot of people called him a liar, or said it was coincidence. Turned out AH was right.
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Grinder
post Jun 8 2010, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 8 2010, 10:23 PM) *
All these accusations going back and forth by everyone are inflammatory. Please consider before making them, and especially consider that these boards are not the appropriate venue for some of these matters.


We can't say who's right or wrong in this - and this board and this thread are certainly not the place for a discussion between AH and Jason Hardy. So please continue this into a private environment. Agreeing with DireRadiant that this whole deabte is close to become a flame war, this thread will be locked down for at least 12 hour to give everyone a chance to cool down (didn't we have that before?).
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Grinder
post Jun 9 2010, 02:05 PM
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Unlocked. Play nice, boys and girls! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Fuchs
post Jun 9 2010, 02:11 PM
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First the accidental sale of the DotA adventures while Jennifer Harding had pulled her copyright, then the accidental release of AH's text fragment.

This doesn't inspire much confidence in the claims that things have changed at CGL/IMR.
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Lansdren
post Jun 9 2010, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jun 9 2010, 03:11 PM) *
First the accidental sale of the DotA adventures while Jennifer Harding had pulled her copyright, then the accidental release of AH's text fragment.

This doesn't inspire much confidence in the claims that things have changed at CGL/IMR.



Whilst I do try to see both sides of everything the little slip ups (and I might be being very generous here) cant come at a worse time to breed good will with everyone watching this from the outside.
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Fuchs
post Jun 9 2010, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jun 9 2010, 04:21 PM) *
Whilst I do try to see both sides of everything the little slip ups (and I might be being very generous here) cant come at a worse time to breed good will with everyone watching this from the outside.


Which is why it's not surprising that a few posters are quite vocal in their attempts to convince everyone else that revealing such slips should have no place here, and should not be made public.
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Grinder
post Jun 9 2010, 02:37 PM
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There's a difference between making this mistake public and an on-going feud between two posters (AH and Jason).
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Fuchs
post Jun 9 2010, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Jun 9 2010, 04:37 PM) *
There's a difference between making this mistake public and an on-going feud between two posters (AH and Jason).


Indeed. And people should not try to mix that up, and mistake making a mistake public with feuding.
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Grinder
post Jun 9 2010, 02:40 PM
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Yep.
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DireRadiant
post Jun 9 2010, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jun 9 2010, 09:33 AM) *
Which is why it's not surprising that a few posters are quite vocal in their attempts to convince everyone else that revealing such slips should have no place here, and should not be made public.


The moderation team encourages civil discussion on topics of interest. The thread gets locked or warnings issued when posts are inflammatory, baiting, or filled with personal attacks.

This topic is of interest and related to the boards and will continue.

Just keep it civil.

Fuchs, your continued inflammatory accusations are not contributing to the civil discussion.
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Lansdren
post Jun 9 2010, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Jun 9 2010, 03:37 PM) *
There's a difference between making this mistake public and an on-going feud between two posters (AH and Jason).



Whilst I can understand people not wanting a feud to be so public and hostile I find myself thinking that if I was in AH's position with off board assurances proving to be false (no one has yet claimed AH was not emailed to say his work was not included so I will assume this is fact not just speculation) I too would be shouting from the rooftops as it were. I understand that there may be no correct public forum for airing such issues but I also am unsure if had this all been done more quietly the end result might have happened much much later.

I dont believe for one second that any company would correct a error so quickly if it had not been called out in public

For the record I am not taking sides or passing judgement on any single person more commenting on a situation and a company as I am seeing it
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crizh
post Jun 9 2010, 03:09 PM
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I'd like to come out here and state that I'm pretty much fed up with watching Fuchs get it in the ear from the moderation team. Do try and be a bit more impartial.

If you are going to accuse him of being inflammatory it would be nice if you could be extremely specific about what you mean by that word. I don't recall seeing him engage in any personal attacks. He is occasionally a bit blunt but frankly that would seem to be cultural and many of the German speaking members are far less polite about calling a spade a spade. Honesty does not equate to inflammatory in my book.

And for the love of God don't bother accusing him of spamming the boards again, that's just outrageous.

When one guy is being systematically attacked by five or six other posters and he responds to all of their accusations he isn't spamming, they are.

Frankly it's a bloody miracle that he managed to remain as civil as he did during those episodes. I'm a little ashamed that I wasn't willing to stick up for him while half a dozen posters I'd barely heard of previously poured bile and scorn over a forum regular. I can't say Fuchs is someone that I often agree with but he's someone that's earned my respect.
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otakusensei
post Jun 9 2010, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jun 9 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Whilst I can understand people not wanting a feud to be so public and hostile I find myself thinking that if I was in AH's position with off board assurances proving to be false (no one has yet claimed AH was not emailed to say his work was not included so I will assume this is fact not just speculation) I too would be shouting from the rooftops as it were. I understand that there may be no correct public forum for airing such issues but I also am unsure if had this all been done more quietly the end result might have happened much much later.

I dont believe for one second that any company would correct a error so quickly if it had not been called out in public

For the record I am not taking sides or passing judgement on any single person more commenting on a situation and a company as I am seeing it

Not taking sides or passing judgment is fine. I believe what Fuchs wants in this situation is people to acknowledge the failings of CGL and not to hand waive them away.

We aren't talking about shooting offenses here, but we are talking about wrongs. They were done, Jason fessed up; and if we are to move on we should do so while maintaining the knowledge of them. What you conclude and infer from them is up to you and all are welcome to state those inferences and speculations on them.

Just to be clear I'm not directly accusing you of this action. I'm only pointing out that behavior because I'm worried that it was going on in this thread and others.
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hermit
post Jun 9 2010, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE
I don't recall seeing him engage in any personal attacks. He is occasionally a bit blunt but frankly that would seem to be cultural and many of the German speaking members are far less polite about calling a spade a spade. Honesty does not equate to inflammatory in my book.

Actually, yes. This is a cultural thing. Generally, German-speaking peoples do consider bluntness honest and up front, not rude. Though Fuchs, being Swiss, is not among these, many Germans - especially from the East - consider the kind of politeness practiced and demanded by American culture phoney and dishonest ('better spit in my face than smile and stab my back'). This can be extremly grating and causes problems with even other Germans - particularily Swiss, who often feel offended by Germans' bluntness (and to a lesser degree, with Austrians, too).

Thus, both my way of stating criticism and - I assume - Fuchs' are not intended to be insulting, but just factual. While I can see how Anglos, especially Americans with their strict codes about politeness, can feel insulted by this, this is in al likelyhood just a misunderstanding.

QUOTE
I believe what Fuchs wants in this situation is people to acknowledge the failings of CGL and not to hand waive them away.

My understanding is that he feels public pressure is needed to ensure CGL corrects such mistakes (which I personally assume they were, Corp Guide being the hack job it is, and given the fact copying that little table would gain CGL absolutly nothing).
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Abstruse
post Jun 9 2010, 03:29 PM
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I still don't think anyone's said beyond a vague "mid-June", but what is the actual expiration date of the license? Is this for both Shadowrun and BattleTech or are the two licenses separate?

Here's a big one. What happens if the license is not renewed,? Can CGL continue to sell products they've already developed (like Corporate Guide), will they get to finish anything that's in the planning stages (Sixth World Atlas/Almanac or whatever it's called and other projects that are closer to finished than not)? Or do they have cease production/printing immediately and no longer sell anything they have in stock? Will they have to turn over all their work to Topps or whoever gets the license, or will the freelancers have to go themselves and re-pitch, going through editorial and everything again?

I think before anyone could answer this, we'd need to see the actual legal documents in the license and probably someone to interpret them...but hopefully one of the insiders will know. Basically, it's the difference (if the license isn't renewed) between whatever CGL's release schedule is, haphazard as it is at the moment, and probably nothing new in Shadowrun for a year or so.
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Mesh
post Jun 9 2010, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (crizh @ Jun 9 2010, 11:09 AM) *
I'd like to come out here and state that I'm pretty much fed up with watching Fuchs get it in the ear from the moderation team. Do try and be a bit more impartial.

If you are going to accuse him of being inflammatory it would be nice if you could be extremely specific about what you mean by that word. I don't recall seeing him engage in any personal attacks. He is occasionally a bit blunt but frankly that would seem to be cultural and many of the German speaking members are far less polite about calling a spade a spade. Honesty does not equate to inflammatory in my book.

And for the love of God don't bother accusing him of spamming the boards again, that's just outrageous.

When one guy is being systematically attacked by five or six other posters and he responds to all of their accusations he isn't spamming, they are.

Frankly it's a bloody miracle that he managed to remain as civil as he did during those episodes. I'm a little ashamed that I wasn't willing to stick up for him while half a dozen posters I'd barely heard of previously poured bile and scorn over a forum regular. I can't say Fuchs is someone that I often agree with but he's someone that's earned my respect.


I agree with Crizh. I don't have a horse in this race, but I find overmoderation (in particular when directed against a particular individual) offensive. Fuch's and the others' points are relevant and on topic. When I want to hear what they have to say regarding the CGL situation, I read this thread. When I don't, I read another. I'm an adult. I like having the choice in my hands and don't need anyone holding my hand to guide me through the bad words and bad intentions on the internet.

Mesh
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augmentin
post Jun 9 2010, 03:59 PM
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A few things:

America's a big country. What's acceptable in the Deep South is much different than what's acceptable in New England is much different than what's acceptable in Southern California. The German bluntness would be right at home in Boston. (BTW: go Lakers!)

There's a thread already started about moderation fairness. This conversation probably belongs there, but since I'm not a moderator and it's already been brought up, my 2 cents:

I'd like to see the moderation stepped up a bit. It's frustrating to check in here for news and have to scroll through pages of discussion of the word "the" or interpretations of copyright law from non-Washingon Bar, non-copyright specialists. A prominent poster was permbanned for 10+ instances of personal attacks after being warned. There are several active posters on these forums that we could go back and find at least 10 instances of unwarranted personal attacks. The mods have a tough job to do and I think they're doing their best. There's years of precedent for their actions. Let's all remember these are free forums and the mods can do whatever the drek they want.

My humble suggestion: create an compartmentalized, unmoderated section of dumpshock and let posters bait, troll, flame and generally run amok. But, for civil discourse, let's stick to the TOS and the years of precedent.
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LurkerOutThere
post Jun 9 2010, 04:00 PM
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So if it's culturally ok to beat my children when I'm having a bad day that's cool right? Just so we're clear here.

I do believe Fuchs has been systematically looking for a fight with anyone who's not ready to lynch everyone still working for IMR/CGL and burn down the offices. You may agree or disagree but that is my perception and frankly it's as valid as that of anyone else.

He does post the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and ctrl-v etc. Looking back at his posts there is a LOT of ......but COLEMAN! EMBEZZLEMENT! Warrrrrgabbbbbble! Admitedly this thread has been pretty spectacular in that field from all quarters. Before you go defending poor Fuchs this is the same guys who tried to spin one line of a legal brief into a new accusation of wrong doing because it would not hold up to snuff in his own country, only to have someone who practiced law there come in and tell him he was wrong.

In short, I think he protests too much. Mesh too tbh.
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