The same reason why nobody messes with the other highly awakened nations . .
Because nobody wants to fuck with something that's faster, stronger, tougher and thinks of the people messing with it as a tasty snack at best . .

Just to make sure we're talking apples to apples, are we assuming that they hypothetical person wanting the military to pay for their MD already has their applicable pre-med courses? Does your 17 years assume that you are starting from scratch, as a newly enrolled person at University?

That only applies to armed drones, though, doesn't it? If I recall from my time in the Marine Corps, the people controlling the unarmed Predator drones were E-5s.

On the topic of Drones supplanting Flesh-and-Blood humans as grunts...

Remember the axiom that an "Army always plans around the last war." The last major engagement that the UCAS Army participated in was the Renraku Arcology Shutdown. Going up against an all-powerful AI is probably responsible for formulating drone doctrine.

I have been skimming this thread and just wanted to throw in a few comments.

As for edge for everyone: Players get edge, Prime Runners get edge (so do my groups favourite contacts), groups of grunts get edge (it's called Professional Rating); after this it's more house-rulesy - spirits get edge (if summoned by a mage, it shares mage's edge), AI/sprites have edge (if the sprite was summoned by a technomancer, it shares TM's edge), vehicles/items under direct PC control can use edge, even on actions that do not involve/require the PC (though I often argue it must be a beloved/well-used item, i.e. your ancient beat up Gaz pickup or your trusty Predator's smartlink sensor suite).

As for military units: I prefer to use a mixture of the sample groups in the back of SR4A and a heaping helping of local colour.

Basic military grunts are not very good at anything, but generally good enough not to fail every test. I would argue that this quality of grunt is the most likely to be encountered anywhere Shadowrunners meet the military in the wild (random roadblocks in wartorn Asian micronations, anti-cattle rustling patrols in African plains, etc). I tend to give them inexpensive armor (armor fatigues, helmets, AK-97s) but nothing worth more than a few thousand collectively.

But the thing shadowrunners are more likely to encounter and be challenged by, are purpose selected units of a higher caliber. Here I generally just use a basic group composition, and add a specialty (maybe two) to every member of the group, reflecting their additional training. Members might be trained in demolitions, medicine, electronic warfare, magical protection, advanced vehicle skills, etc. I also throw in a few non-metahuman toys to keep things interesting. Megacorp armies tend to have big guns, special 'ware and some drones to play with. Other, more magically inclined nations, might replace the drones with paracritters or magical compounds. Fighting another group of goons can be boring, but fighting a PCC anti-talislegging task force in the Mojave when the enemy soldiers are all juiced up on Animal Tongue and Little Smoke brings even some semi-trained goons into line with what your average, well-balanced runner team can handle. Generally I don't put this caliber of NPC in military armor, as it can be too difficult for many players to kill. Ideally, I'd keep each member of the teams imaginary gear costs at under 10k, except perhaps the mage or hacker.

And clearly at the far end of the spectrum, is the very powerful elite military unit. They will obviously out-gear/out-play your average shadowrunner team, but I would only ever use them as a deterrent or as a means of illustrating that something is too dangerous to openly assault. I'd wager they'll have their share of initiated mages/technomancers (or at least hackers with military grade hardware), goons with betaware, etc. This is also the kind of unit I tend to put in military grade armor, and generally they should be using player-killing weapons (lots of recoil reduction, lots of AP, etc). In the few occasions where groups do fight these beasts, I tend to equip them in advance with something to level the playing field.

On drones: I use them heavily for my militaries, but I would never imply any military unit I'm describing relies on them. Nobody trusts machines over flesh and blood. Arsenal even introduced a rigged missile, just because drones/sensors are too easily fooled.

Hope this isn't redundant or off-topic...

I don't know if it's in any of the newer books, but there used to be some references to an ultra-secret Corparate Court law, which among other things outlawed the development of core war virii (aka. a new crash worm) and using ASAT weapons - the price of transgression being an Omega Order on your ass. The big corps know how vital the communication grid is, they don't want anybody to start taking out chokepoints, which would invite the other party to respond in kind.




@Oxymoron: Those 17 years include the full university education (6 years), plus two years practical training at a hospital. For other study courses it's 12 years, by the way.

[EDIT] Removed my TL:DR rant. Sorry about that.

That does sound familiar and certainly the threat of the combined military assets of the big 12 coming down on you would keep most corps and states in line. However at the same time it also invites all of those parties to try to do exactly those sorts of things in a way that cannot be traced back to them.

Note if you're a runner this is a job you either really don't want or failing that want a lot up front to do.

Corporate Court Justice: So you're saying we need to hit 319 Carlisle Street in Gary Indiana with a Thor Shot because that's the source of the Com-Sat outage? You are aware that has been officially listed as an abandoned property for the past 43 years right? Any idea whose really behind it?

That is entirely possible and sounds well in keeping with the way the Air Force would run things and the Marines would emulate.

I love sending my runners into space. It's just another one of the settings that makes Shadowrun so damned cool, and satellite sabotage/hacking are pretty easy zero-g running plots.

I suspect that Military is much more specialized in 2070.
You can use Drones for scanning, for point, etc. You'd have highly specialized fire teams.
You've got Riggers running combinations of AR/VR
You have Hacker teams doing overwatch/counter hacking. Going after the other side's drones.
You have Mages with spirits.
You have Snipers, Chromed out noncoms doing heavy fire support, and demolitions, etc.

Militaries don't need grunts, but they'll have some. Because you aren't going to waste too much Chrome on people who don't have the temperament for combat.

They don't get as insanely cheap as SR shows. Plus they need things like power and maintenance.

And people need food.

People need cyberware, food, training.
Drones need rating 4-7 pilots (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

From scratch.

Um, they get *exactly* as cheap as SR shows. By definition, that's how cheap they are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And, as SR shows, they really *don't* need all that much in the way of power and maintenance; no more than people, certainly.

Ok I am joining late into the discussion:

First world/economically powerful countries have:
Most grunts would have skills in the 1 to 2 range (basic military skills such as firearms, throwing, first aid, leadership, etc). No cyberware just light military armor with milspec helmet. Mobility upgrade of 3 and strength upgrade of 3 with ruthenium polymer coating. 0-1 essense in cyberware/bioware. Mostly eyes, ears, off the shelf nothing restricted or forbidden. Cyberlimbs reflect injuries sustained on the job.

Elite units such as the Army rangers, etc would have the medium milspec armor, primary skills in the 2-3 range with basic skills in the 1-2 range. Additional stats of +1 body and strength. Same upgrades with chemical seal and internal air tank to protect from Biological and chemical weapons. 0-2 essense points in bioware and cyberware. Restricted is allowed. Cyberlimbs reflect injuries sustained on the job.

Finally you have special forces Skills in the 4-5 range for their primary and 2-3 in their secondary skills. Cybernetics and bioware up to 5 essense. Eyes, ears and cyberlimbs common due to injuries sustained in the field. Forbidden and restricted is allowed. Betaware is common with deltaware exclusive to NCOs and officers. Heavy milspec armor. Treat as prime runners with comparable to superior equipment and weapons as shadowrunners.


Standard arms would be HK XM30.
Drone support is common including carrying gear.

I am not including artillery, heavy weapons, etc as this simply assumes squad to platoon level patrols and units. In most cases drone support, artillery, heavy vehicles are on call.

I cannot agree. I consider Grunts "Professionals". Not Veterans, certainly not Elite, but most definitely Professionals.
According to the BBB, "Professional" means a Skill rating of 3. So Grunts should have skill rating of 3 in their primary skills.

Veterans would have primary skill around rating 4.

And Special forces would finally have skill rating 5-6 in their primary skills (See also the entries for Red Samurais and Tir Ghosts for comparison)

When it comes to Enhancements, things aren't as clear cut, unfotunately. Personaly, I would aim for something along the lines of:

Grunts: Few/No Cyber/Bioware. Instead use electronics and Accessoires.
Veterans: basic Combat Cyberware/Bioware, preferrably alpha grade.
Special Forces: Advanced and specialized combat Enhancements, mostly beta grade, some delta-grade, depending on Nation/Corp

See, this is how I see it too... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You really need to review the Skill descriptors to get a true feel for what someone is capable of doing... anyone described as a Professional should/will have a Skill minimum of 3 (with possible specialties) in their primary skills... If they do not have a 3 in their primary skills, then they are not professionals, at least in my opinion, and the opinion of the Developers as well apparently...

Keep the Faith

There's no argument possible here. The book specifically says, Grunts: 3, Veterans: 4, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd also like to remind people that the military is not just a martial tool. Many countries still need welfare armies or have mandatory military service for a few years, I can't really see some countries putting cyberware into every member of their population. Many reserve units are used as multi-purpose manpower units, focusing less on their martial aspect and more on their discipline, physical fitness, etc. And finally, in many situations people are unbelievably cheap. I imagine that most developing nations will take men over drones/spirits any day of the week, men performing the role of any number of drones at adequate levels.

Also: the professional rating system is a great way to imagine enemy grunts. In the examples they include gear and very rarely does it include security/military armor. That stuff is quite expensive (almost as bad as combat bodyware) and time consuming to produce (custom tailored to each individual soldier).

Darn double post.

No Arguments Necessary... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

I agree with the above stated professional levels, thats how I gave all my adversaries stats/dice pools on the fly.

Only problem is the typical soldier/grunt is a poor shot. Most have 4 -6 months of combat training of which include heavy weapons, firearms, close combat, throwing, and other skills such as tactics. The majority of the training is learning how to obey orders. I have been to the range with many of them and the skills definitely fall into the 1-2 category. Just enough familiarity to handle and shoot the weapon. Marksmen are about 4, and snipers in the 5-6 range. You don't need super high dicepools to be effective and considering the actual combat range tends to be less than 100 meters it puts the high dice pools as unrealistic. I hardly consider most soldiers professionals in the firearm category. Most are 0-4 years with limited firearms experience to once a month on the range. Units are determined more by unit cohesion and tactics over high skills. This is what should be reflected is less the dice pools and more how the unit operates in the tactical sense (smoke, suppressive fire, outflanking).

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.