I just wanted to get some people's opinions on this:

What are the comparative strength levels of a Regular Military squad vs. a Shadowrunner team? Should one necessarily be able to dominate the other the majority of the time in an even match? How would a typical infantry squad (not a SpecOps squad like Ghosts, Delta, or Wildcats) be outfitted, specifically as regards armor? What is the norm? Armor Jacket/Camo Suit? Security Armor? Light Military Grade Armor?

Understanding that the T/O doesn't allow for a mage to back-up every squad, what does the typical squad use to protect themselves against a single mage with an overcasted powerbolt from wiping them out, especially in a vehicle?

Any ideas, or things you've used in the past?

Personally, its my opinion that an army squad should be able to take on a typical team rather easily in a toe-to-toe match. Runners, on the other hand, can rely on a higher level use of magic at "street" level, and better hacker support to even the odds, and overcome a squad with the proper planning and use of their specialized skills.

Pretty comparable. Your average grunt has 3 in his firearms group, 4-5 in his physical attributes and the like. A basic armour vest, helmet and some armoured fabric, but some good drilling and tac software so they work together much better than your typical runner crew. Light grade military armour, due to the cost, would probably be restricted to the spec-ops guys.

A group that's of similar numbers to a Shadowrunner team (which would, for the record, likely be called a "fire team")? Yeah, the Shadowrunners will probably take 'em out. Shadowrunners tend to be way over-magicked compared to everyone else, and given to levels of munchkinism and min/maxing you just don't see in your everyday, run of the mill, grunt. Individual gear will be better (or, at least, more specialized), more customized, and individual Shadowrunners will be slinging more dice with their (again, more specialized) actions, roll for roll, compared to your average grunt.

What makes a military dangerous isn't the individual soldier, though, US Army recruitment slogans notwithstanding. The regular military guys could/should have a transport, could/should have better communications and information, could/should have air/drone support, could/should have comprehensive tactical computer assistance, and -- most importantly -- are part of an army.

You don't really run into a fire team (4-5 guys) by itself, unless they are Tir Ghost, or Ares Firewatch, or Sioux Wildcats, or any flavor of real-life badasses. When you're dealing with everyday run of the mill grunts, if you're lucky you run into a platoon or two.

And a platoon or two of guys that train together, know how to lay down suppressive fire while the rest of them flank, all have grenades and are used to using them, have a clear chain of command for a solid "groupthink" response to a tactical situation, etc, etc, etc? That's a whole different ball of wax.

Based off of current regs a U.S. Army squad is nine guys, with a fire team being four. As previously noted their strength comes from long hours spent drilling together over common situations and responses (battle drills), and the various support elements they rely on, such as call for fire/reinforcements. The only elements you would be likely to run into in team size would be special operations, regular army doesn't prowl around in anything less than a squad, and even then usually only if at least one other squad is nearby.

Equipment of a regular army squad would probably be pretty basic for pricing reasons, and I would have to imagine that cyber/bio gear would be limited to what an individual soldier could buy for themselves (not very much). Depending on how the game is run (gritty gang style to high profile James Bond kind of stuff) the Shadowrunners are much more likely to have heavily invested in gear, cyber/bio, and personal training. The only real ace the regular squad would have is their small unit tactics training and any support nearby. I would vote on the Shadowrunners most of the time

Powerbolts don't do shit against armored vehicles. Treat it as a barrier. They can't overcome the armor defense roll + the 15 points of structure in the single roll, which is what the rules require.

Outside the squad spreads out. Typical interval internal that a modern fire team should maintain is 10 meters between members, so explosions only get one guy. This also works against magic, if they can locate the magician.

A typical squad would be linked into a tactical network and carried much heavier weapons than the typical runner group. The squad missile launcher designed to kill main battle tanks will kill anything else, and anyone else in the near vicinity.

And squads don't appear by themselves. A platoon is the smallest actual tactical organization you'd deploy, and it would more typically be a company. So they have access to a LOT more firepower via radio. The runners could be pretty confident that they have the fight under control until the company 120 mm mortars start each dropping a 14kg round every round on the runners....

Infiltration = surprise = "oh shi-"

I also expect runners to be using the kinds of weapons and tactics which would see a soldier court-marshaled.

Reading the sourcebook it seems that even the regular army use cybernetics, and from a long time, so perhaps not all of them have top notch prothesis but second hand older models should be the norm.

Dont forget that SR armies are very often battle blooded, far more often then not in fact. And that a lot of the gear not easily avaliable to Shadowrunner is military grade and thus easily attainable to them.

Awakened magical support and hacking support is probably squad sized or pooled at the company size for better efficiency. Army use magic... a lot of combat magic that only make sense after all.

Also Army guys dont care for licence nor urban infiltration that much, I bet each squad is backed up by several drones wth centralised military grade defense (look in unwirred it is 6-7+ in firewall). Every soldier have a military grade full armor, access to the best ammo and weapons, a high level functionning tac-net, a lot of experiences, anti-tank weaponnary on hand and heavy artillery and missile support readily avaliable.

My bet is that Army are above Shadowrunnner in standard in the face battle, they should be. In infiltration/Ambush, the Shadowrunner can manage to disrupt, succede in their mission, but they are not supposed to be able to stand toes to toes with regulars military unit.

Disclaimer : I am only considering Armies from middle-upper Countries and Corporation, that is Professionnal Soldiers that goes through selection and training with integrated tactics and strategies, no Third-World mob that are +/- the first guy you can get put a hat and a AK on. I am also not considering conscript armies (Reserve, National Guard) that doesn't exist anymore in the 6th world.

Also, considering the current modern trend, the average infantry are going to have a lot of drone support, especially considering how little drones cost in 2070. If I were the GM, I would assign at least a Steel Lynx for fire support and several little recon flyers to each squad of grunts.

KZT I think you need to check out how powerbolt works. You only need to defeat the object resistance test (5+) and the vehicle gets no damage resistance test. You can find the relevant passages on pg 204 of SR4a. The combat spells referenced by pg 187 of SR4a refer to indirect combat spells.

Aside from the obvious points that have been mentioned so far (minimum Platoon sized, heavy drone support, artillery, military grade equipment), there's also this:

1.) It depends heavily on what military you are running against. Aztlan, for excemple, isn't overly concerned about the cost of anchored spells for their units.

2.) Spirits on remote task and/or loaned services can easily provide field support against magical threats. It is important to understand that "Karma costs" don't factor into NPCs for various reasons. Resources being one of them.

3.) It also depends on the Enviroment they operate in. In "civilized" urban areas, they won't be able to call in artillery strikes, for excemple. (So no massive drone Bombardment in Downtown Seattle). In "uncivilized" urban areas, that restriction no longer applies (Read: carpet bombing Lagos is somewhat acceptable).

Usually army dont fight in heavily civilian populated area. But if the menace is large enough to send in the army then it is implicated they could use any ressource in their arsenal. The civilian having to evacuate the area as fast as they can.

To be noticed than Drones could provided localised heavy fire to supply the lack of heavy ordonnance in populated area.

Remember than standard army units are usually above police SWAT team in terms of training and equipement. When you bring on the army then you want the opposition to be leveled. Also they tend to use far more heavily armored and armed vehicule than police. And you can bet than all and every MBT, Choppers and Strike Aircraft were given wards and protection (linked spirit ?) against magical agression.

We are in 2070, not 2020 anymore, in firepower armies are usually the leaders. I dont think a street wiz is supposed to be able to do anything to a military vehicules. Thoses are supposed to go against major countries and corporation magical ressources, they are obviously shielded against Direct Magic.

carpet bombing lagos is a hobby

But one other thing to consider is terms.

A first term grunt that hasn't turned career isn't going to be packing much in the way of ware (datajack, cyberyes, maybe a smartlink)

Where a third term career soldier might be packed with a bit more (1 or 2 levels of wired reflexes, maybe a cyberspur, and dermal plating)

Also consider the role, a rigger would have a datajack, headware commlink, and control module standard (and a longer term of service too)

I would say an average fire team would be 3 guys with assault rifles (with it being SR all with the grenade launchers, but only 1 magazine of HE minigrenades), 1 clip in the gun and 6 on the belts. Likely pack a few grenades (1 HE, 1 Frag, 2 utility [flare, smoke]), survial knife and for armor I would say fatigues (3/0) or armor vest (6/4) and then survial gear (gasmask, survial kit, medkit, etc) with a mid-range commlink (rating 4, with encrypt, eccm, and analyze)

The fourth guy would be packing a LMG with a couple drums of ammo (and likely the rest may hump a couple extras)

Drone support would be a couple I-balls (offensive) with maybe a couple fly spys as standard gear. With anything nastier being assigned per mission by the company/platoon leaders. Same with the disposable/reusable heavy weapons like missiles/rockets.

You got to remember your average grunt has to lug this crap around, so when you stop and consider gear for them think of that.

I find your fireteam awfully inadequate for the 6th world especially for armor. They aren't even on par with standard Cops units, that laughable.

At least light military armor for everyone, this isn't 1980 anymore. Did you check next gen military armor we are supposed to have ?

And the commlink should be 6 grade, nothing less.

Your average grunt could very cheaply be upgraded so he can carry all this gear, if he isn't an ork or troll to begin with. Forget about not taking the career, thoses armies are 100% professionnal and very experienced, they are very often implicated in live action and not just rehersal. Eurowars, Desertwars, Radwars, Amazonwars heck even Urban Brawl...

Just look at current day military in Irak, they have at last double the armor you mentionned and top of the notch communication far better than civilians ones.

The things about armies is that they like what they do and they usually dont look too closely about how much money they pump into their first line fighters. It is evident all the military weapons are smartlinked by standard, and that everyone in the unit is in a very secure tacnet, monitored by dedicated electronical warfare units and able to call for help magical and mundane backup.

Look in Unwired p.78 to the rating of the exampled Aztlan Army Airbase...

Of course that is for 1st rate Western Armies, traditionnaly Eastern Armies are supposedly less well equipped and Third World even less.

Also your fireteam lack AT capability (at least several discardable rocket launcher) and a dedicated Sniper. About Drone support, the arsenal mention an Ammo/Gear carrier that is supposed to go with the soldiers on the field.

"You got to remember your average grunt has to lug this crap around, so when you stop and consider gear for them think of that."

And consider the supply chain that is behind him and keeping him feed and armed, your average grunt never have to lug more than what he need for the current operation.

I would give them Armored jackets instead of armored vests and rating 5 commlinks. They are kmilitary and to me an "Armored Vest" in shadowrun is something to wear under regular clothing (which the rules expressively permit), so I'd hardly consider it a Flak Vest. Also, I would have every Soldier carry a Sidearm (Colt Government L36 or an FN 5-7C) with two extra clips. Other than that, I would agree with your assessment.

I would like to challenge that idea, i would say that except for those few armies in open war at the moment a SWAT-team members see a lot more action then a standrart army units and as such are better trained and more experienced.

I would say (seeing how much resources shadowrunners get in chargen) that shadowrunner team would wipe out similar size military team every time.

But I should add that (as most people already mentioned before) militray has this feature of calling for support in such situations. There is one support that should be immediate (Army hackers in call of emergency should be able jump into grunts commlink immediately from Pentagon and do some hacking from there on shadowrunners team and their gear - and that hacker could definitely call for more backup/agents to overpower opposition) the other support should be quite fast (Astral travelling mage arrives at the place usually quite fast and then makes sure that the shadowrunners do not disappear. Maybe mage can even call some spirit for service if appropriate). Later drones and choppers arrive...

I have to agree with this. Shadowrunners won't typically run into a single army fire team, they will be outnumbered four to one in the best situation. The only time they run into military grunts in equal numbers would be when running into milspec specops and that squad will have skills and firepower on par with or better that the runners (in most cases). Unless you're extremely ballsy, the default strategy when you run into military should be evade and escape. It doesn't matter if you could take on an entire platoon on your own. There will be other military elements in the area and they will respond to your aggression.

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I would agree. I would place SWAT teams above basic military grunts. SWAT teams are more highly trained to operate as a team compared to infantry, but you have to consider that SWAT teams are trained to clear buildings, not operate in open environments. In a closed environment, I would say a SWAT team is more dangerous due to their tactical training. In an open environment I would call the infantry more dangerous due to their superior firepower.

Right now it costs somewhere between $200k-$400k to support a single active soldier out in the field. This includes the costs of training, salary, equipment, plus the nine guys behind him providing support services. Balking at a $10k piece of armor or a $2k smartlink 'because it costs too much' doesn't make sense.

Each deployed, front-line troop should have, at minimum, the best medkit available, a full set of hardened combat armor, heavily armored, warded transportation, heavy EW support, heavy tactical information support, a well-established network of observation drones, magical support, vehicle support, and at least half their number in combat drones (not necessarily rigged, but available for checking around corners). A large number of grunts are going to have at least some combat experience - in the Desert Wars, or in another context. Militaries have shrunk, but their need has grown, so expect these to be volunteer armies where the focus is on having good people rather than lots of people.

In 'deadliest warrior' fashion with equal numbers of runners and grunts, but everyone's toys, the runners would probably win - narrowly. Why? Partially because the runners use unconventional tools and tactics, partially because they're better trained, and partially because five grunts can't take advantage of the whole infrastructure they're trained to rely on. But that sort of thing won't happen. If the runners are fighting grunts, they're fighting a LOT of grunts, plus the 500 guys behind the grunts who provide all that infrastructure. The runners may escape, and may achieve a particular objective, but they won't 'win'.

Overly long post from a former grunt below:


Short version:
I expect the grunts unit would win except against very smart shadowrunners, who probably would be smart enough not to take on a platoon of regular infantry to begin with. The smarter shadowrunners would probably use tactics much like we are seeing Iraq: IEDs, use of the civilian population, and very, very rarely guerilla skirmishes and even then, mostly against their logistical support units.

EDIT: added bullets for readability

Since we're talking regular soldiers and not spec forces I'd say one on one the average runner will beat the average soldier in shooting and hand to hand. runners are most likely better at improvising and working on the fly while soldiers will have better plans and fall back points in areas and objectives they know.

Basic soldiers have the advantage in orgnaization, numbers and the ease with which they can get stuff. All the soldiers should have uniform weapons which means trading out mags and knowing what the limitations are. Most runners use what works for them and don't co-ordinate weapons that tightly with their team. More than anything the soldiers organization and communication, like Police, will give them the upper hand in a prolonged fight with runners.

Ditto: soldiers will always have overwhelming numbers/materiel/intel/support.

Anyone want to take on the challenge of statting a battalion for 2070? You'll get Dumpshock NERPS™ points.

Don't tempt me =)

So... for t3h lulz?

And by statted out do you mean individual stats/equipment for 16 officers, 16 staff NCO, 16 medics, 16 radio operators, 192 NCOs, and 432 enlisted men, plus the command staff for each level (Battalion, Company, and Platoon)? Or can we be lazy and assign the same stats/skills for each unique loadout?

Note, that if I have the command structure right for commissioned officers...

x1 Colonel/Lt. Colonel
x4 Major/Captain
x16 Lieutenants/2nd Lieutenants

That of course ignores any officers in the headquarters staff....

You should also stat out all the noncombat and civilian workers supporting them, the military-industrial complex, and the nation housing it.

The post made mention of the grunts being trained and equipped the same, so I imagine officers are similar (I've no military experience, so I can't say for sure at all). I imagine everyone's attributes will be very similar, and they will all have a similar set of baseline skills, but anyone in the command structure and NCOs are going to have specialized skills ("I can type. Can you type?").

Designing a command station would actually be really quite interesting. You will have a poured plascrete structure that is heavily armored and so wired it looks like a creepy matrix octopus, dozens of really large display screens for running a centralized tacnet of at least a dozen fireteams and drones, etc. But I'm an engineer-in-training, so I think of all the cool things that could be done and often miss the financial/logistical limitations. Do we have anyone who works in some form of military that can tell us anything about what this would be like? At least what this would be like that you are allowed to admit to the public?

It's worth pointing out that the army would have a lot of Orks and Trolls. I imagine all the usual incentives regarding education, etc. are in play in the 2070 recruitment drives and all the poor Orks and Trolls are not only the prime tragets of that kind of campaign, but their physical stats make them great soldiers.

I imagine physical adepts would be immediately recruited into special forces units, considering how scarce they are you wouldn't bother placing them in regular platoons.

I can't see shadowrunners do anything but guerilla warfare. If your enemy can't see you, you are less likely to get shot/die. Be mobile, use what your enemy can't. I would also think that most shadowrunner teams would have someone in them with military experience/tactics. I would actually surmise that most shadowrun teams would be at least equal to an elite seal squad or higher.

You pretty well nail it with the skills. Everyone gets the same basic first aid, weapons familiarization, call for fire, etc. training. Career NCOs and officers go to more military schools and get specialized.

Just for reference on that command station look at the wikipedia for Blue Force Tracker or the FBCB2, they are the the central hubs of any TOC (Tactical Operations Center).

There's also the Land Warrior system, which got fielded in Iraq a few years ago by a Stryker unit. It's basically a heads up display of battlefield info with live-update capability.

This is all public domain stuff from wikipedia, so try to imagine what is really out there and classified right now, then advance it 60 years

Agreed. Every military would love to have the toughness and strength of people like Orks and Trolls. Besides, if a country considers that Orks and Trolls become adults faster, that means that you can have more soldiers faster.

Yeah, thats what we used to call BattleTac^tm back in sr3. Who needs chrome when you can equip your grunt with a BattleTac^tm-receiver, a helmet and a set of goggles?

I've always run the maxim "If runners are ever going up against the military, some thing has gone horribly wrong." Runners are generally better on a 1 for one basis, but the problem here is that regular military can bring alot more to bear on the target. Take the mage example. In some countries it is incorporated at the platoon or even squad level. But for them if they need help, they can call their fellow mages in other units for help. A runner does not have that option. A rigger may also be at the platoon level, and they may provide the drone support and call in outher riggers should it be needed. Furthermore APDS is the standard ammo for them, laser and gauss weapons are possible weapons that may also be employed, meaning they are leathal in the extreme.

In short--Runners + Military Opposition = Runners.

Well, in a one on one situation, i expect most runners to simply wipe the floor with the army guys.
The Army-Grunts are supposed to be just that. Grunts and jack of all trades, while the shadowrunner usually is an extremely accomplished specialist in his field of choice . . And probably has some nice equipment too . . Just look at some of the threads around dumpshock, some of the builts in there are this close to being a complete army platoon all by their lone some self . .

I don't think anyone is contesting that a group of runners could wipe a single fire team or squad of soldiers. The problem is when the other elements of the battalion begin deploying against the runners because the runners weren't able to wipe out the squad before they could call in for backup or that the runners are out there. You can quickly get turned into a fine red mist in cross fire, drone fire, artillery fire, or close air support.

I disagree. The difference is in training, drill, equipment and intelligence. While Runners may be able to field comparable equipment in certain cases, they are not playing in the same Ballpark when it comes to actual Firepower.

Ares MP Laser systems, Thunderstruck Gauss Rifles, Close air support, Drone support, anchored spells...

Even on the defensive side, many Runners will fall short of the military assault armor the opposition would bring.

And having one guy in the team with military experience is going to amount to jack squat if you're going up against a team, where ALL have military training.

Hell, you could take the standard Red Samurai Team straight out of SR4A and give them the military armor they are supposed to wear instead of the regular full body armor and they could ruin the day of most Runner teams. Especially if you factor in additionally available resources, Like drone support and astral overwatch.
And that's just a SECURITY team, not military special forces.

In short: I am fairly confident that SR special Forces could wipe the floor with most Runner teams.

Naturally.

There's one problem I'm seeing with all of this.

Everyone is assuming that the Runners would be up against the U.S. Special Forces of 2072, or whatever. The future equivalent of "the best of the best of the best" of fighting forces out there. OF COURSE most Runner teams will get creamed, it's not even a question. It's like asking if a tricked-out armored car can take a tank - there's no contest. Escape and Evade, maybe, but defeat in anything approaching an even fight? no way.

Thing is, as far as I can tell, the "U.S. Special Forces" or "U.S. Marines" don't exist in 2072. No country has the resources to field forces of this caliper in any significant amount. The Corporations, which are the actual powers in the world, generally don't bother with standing armies - war is expensive.

So, what is actually being compared?

From a role playing perspective... a character with military experience will help, but not in a combat situation. I still hold that the SOP for runners when coming across military soldiers is the evade and escape. Someone with military experience could -aid- in that.



Oh god yes. For the simple reason that spec ops are skilled straight for combat. If you take your stereotypical team, you're going to have a face and a hacker, both of which will almost certainly lack the combat skills that spec ops have. Only the street sam and possibly the mage will have the combat prowess to go up against spec ops, but you're talking about two versus four at best. Now, if you have a "legendary" crew of runners, then yeah, maybe they can spoil the fun of spec ops but most runners will be outclassed meeting up with them, just for the simple fact that they're going to be in a numerically inferior position, and if they hole up....

Well, artillery and other heavy weaponry could be used.

A control rig is all of 10k, so I can easily see a rigger as a squad-level position, though due to the specialized training, probably not on each fireteam. They could also provide basic hacker defense (essential for 2070s combat). The true non-combat hacker types will probably stay with the platoon or company HQ element.

As to the armor debate, I usually envision the military wearing the 8/4 camo fatigues on base and in low-threat environments, but milspec armor when out on patrol.

Uh, Tir Ghosts and Sioux Wildcats, or even the Azzie Jaguar Guards / Shorned Ones fit the bill of 2072 SpecOps.

One of the early SR novels actually talks about this at some point (one of Findley's, but I can't remember which one) - and says that the average SR team is going to get wiped out by regular military. Mainly because the military guys are going to have much better equipment. All the stuff that has high availability codes, they are all going to have. Their software is going to be way better, and their tactical networks are going to be orders of magnitude better.

When it comes to training, I think the average 2070 soldier (from a major power) is also going to be quite comparable to the average runner. They are going to have been through rigorous, formal training programs designed for maximum skill in minimum time. And considering what computer systems could do in 2070, they are going to have a lot of combat experience under their belts long before they ever get shot at in anger. While they may be less specialized than the average runner, they are going to be well trained to do whatever their function is within their unit: the heavy weapons guys are going to know how to use their weapon, etc. In game terms, I'd consider giving soldiers specializations in the use of their specific equipment. And they will have all sorts of the big stuff - missile and rocket launchers out the wazoo.

When it comes to implants, my take is that they are also going to augment the heck out of the soldiers. Reflex boosters of whatever type is most cost effective, and anything that makes the soldier more survivable (bone lacing, platelet factories, etc.). Simple cost/benefit: if you are spending a couple of hundred thousand on training (like the US does now), you are going to spend at least that much to make sure the guy stays alive.

I agree that their weakness is in magical support, with limited numbers of mages lying above the platoon level. However, binding material costs are trivial for a nation state, so I can very easily see that there would be large numbers of spirits tasked to support groups in the field. And in cases where the threat is known to be Awakened, I'd expect that a lot of magical assets would be tasked to support. And I'd suspect that all military mages are well versed in the arts of ritual magic, and metamagics like Quickening and Shielding.

Then again, I can see the military recruiting heavily for mages. The ratio of awakened to mundane in the military is probably a lot higher than in the general population, so they'd probably have more than you'd think. And I can see a lot of mages seeing the appeal - particularly hermetics. Automatic initiatory groups. Nearly unlimited resources for binding/summoning and the like. Lots of foci. Massive magical libraries. Lots of training...

That's my take. I put regular military at a distinct advantage over a standard runner. But it's not an apples to apples comparison: runners are special warfare types, and aren't meant to go up against regular troops - just like modern-day A and B-teams aren't meant to go toe-to-toe with regular forces.

In my game, I'd classify going up against regular military forces up there with great form dragons: if the runners have to fight one, it's because the GM is trying to kill you.

I've found in general, at least with SR4 the Combat rules do tend to favor larger numbers over the long run. Military regular Infantry is kind of an extreme example, 5 runners vs. a Batallion with regular equipment isn't even going to be close. Runners do best in a situaion where they are in equal or only a slight numeric disadvantage and they can use their superior skills and equipment to greatest advantage.

Let's substiute Regular Infantry with a large Orc Street Gang. If the runners come up against 6-8 Orc Boyz drinkin' 40's in the Park it's no contest runners win easy. Now suppose those same runner piss off the entire Orc Boyz Nation in the Redmond barrens in the course of doing some legwork to the point where they all turn out and are trying to hunt them down, now maybe 150 Orc Boyz. They lack the training, hardware, support, discipline, well pretty much everything the Army has but they still have numbers. 30 Gangers firing at one Street Sam will do some damage over the long haul, especially if they are juiced up on drugs and not behaving rationally (like not going Holy **** that guy just took down 4 dudes in less than a second I better bounce on outta here).

@ Infantry command post ("CP"): picture a dump. A 20-30 year old olive drab canvas tent held up with actual wood and tied down with actual twine rope. Now picture 5-10 year old computers and 10-15 year old radios and then fill in the scene with 18-40 year old guys wearing clothing ill-equiped for the heat and that haven't showered with anything but baby wipes or eaten anything but MREs since setting up the CP days or weeks ago.
Now imagine that the site was selected for concealment and defensibility and without consideration of water runoff or wind patterns.
Then liberally add the smell of sweat, CLP, and diesel and you've just about got it.
And that's POGies (Persons Other than Grunts) that get to chill in the CP. The line companies are set in a defensive perimeter around the CP (or on patrol) with their weapon protected in the sleeping bag while they sleep under a poncho.

In 2072 I'd imagine it's just about the same except instead of the radio farms, I'd imagine small commlinks with satellite uplinks and drone retrans units and several magical lodges.

Someone brought up a good point: the poor tend to be disproportionately represented in the infantry. With so many poor to chose from in 2072, I'd imagine the state could pay them less and provided fewer benefits and actually field a fairly large army even with limited tax revenues. By concentrating drone and magical support at the battalion CP it could be pretty cost effective to field a dystopian future infantry.

Don't forget the rattle of the generator that keeps going down because Signals keeps stealing the CP's jerry cans to keep their own tent running.

Screw the spec ops, regular grunts are better trained and equipped then the average SR team. Only the most elite teams have a chance in hell against standard grunts (especially if the SR team doesn't have the jump on them). You have to remember that most military training is drills that hammer into the soldier's head, what to do instinctually when certain situations occur. Most SR are petty thugs with little to no background training, and are highly specialized to move against security forces (as tough as they are). The average SR will have to think out what to do in a heavy fire fight, rather then the grunt that is just doing all the right things at the right times.

As D2F also pointed out the standard load out of an average military grunt is equivalent to one of the best load outs you will see in an advanced SR team, so the military will always have more (and bigger) guns then any SR team.

Isn't that when they send the E-1's to the Commisary for the Canned Steam to get the boiler going again?

Oh and while you're there get some headlight fluid for the Jeep and a stack of grid squares.

30 gangers shooting at a single sammy?

By the time the 15th to 20th guy starts shooting at the same sammy, his dodge pool has depleted to nothing. He'll be relying on his soak pool for 10 to 15 guys. At that point, the sammy would probably need at least 15-18 dice in his soak pool to avoid being badly injured or killed.

Never, ever tell an E-1 to go find that and a coil of glow wire and not to come back until he finds it.

He'll go AWOL for the week and it'll be your fault.

They have no business in not using "special" tactics. My money against "gun/armor/shooting-range" armies is on the runners.

Corp militaries will have mostly high-tech units. National militaries would have to shrink in size for that, as even today´s budgets are crippling for some of the nations who have them. Given the need of offering a perspective for the downtrodden, I´m not sure that will happen.

Are you familiar with the Tir Ghosts? Or the Sioux Wildcats?