Dumpshock Forums > Regular Military vs. Shadowrunners

kzt

Jul 15 2010, 03:37 AM

QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jul 14 2010, 08:26 PM)

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

toturi

Jul 15 2010, 03:56 AM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 15 2010, 11:37 AM)

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

So the SAW gunners are not US troops, not that I am saying that you cannot fire a single rounds with a SAW.

LivingOxymoron

Jul 15 2010, 05:49 AM

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 14 2010, 03:46 PM)

That is entirely possible and sounds well in keeping with the way the Air Force would run things and the Marines would emulate.

Actually, my experience with the Predators pre-dates them being armed at all.

LivingOxymoron

Jul 15 2010, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 14 2010, 07:37 PM)

The description I've heard from journalists embedded with US troops is that it's easy in combat to tell US troops apart from the terrorists and insurgents by sound. The people firing semi-auto are US troops, the guys firing on auto are not.

That mostly has to do with the fact that the M-16/M-4 doesn't even have a full auto capability at all, and Burst Fire is pretty much useless. Most western military doctrine has concluded that semi-auto is superior with proper training, and that full-auto is only useful with a weapon that can hold a large amount of rounds for defensive and suppressive fire.

LivingOxymoron

Jul 15 2010, 06:10 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 14 2010, 06:35 PM)

See, this is how I see it too...

You really need to review the Skill descriptors to get a true feel for what someone is capable of doing... anyone described as a Professional should/will have a Skill minimum of 3 (with possible specialties) in their primary skills... If they do not have a 3 in their primary skills, then they are not professionals, at least in my opinion, and the opinion of the Developers as well apparently...

Keep the Faith

In fact, in the Skill Chapter itself bears this out(SR4A pg. 119)

Rating 2:
Firearms example: Trainee in Police Academy or Military Boot Camp
(Also probably the average skill level of most POGs in all services but the Marines)

Rating 3:
Firearms example: Regular Beat Cop or Military Grunt

Rating 4:
Firearms example: Riot Control Cop, combat veteran, superior regular force (Airborne, Marines)

Also, figure that one in 4 of the Rating 3 guys probably has a specialization in their T/O weapon (usually Assault Rifle).

Critias

Jul 15 2010, 06:48 AM

QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jul 14 2010, 11:26 PM)

Only problem is the typical soldier/grunt is a poor shot. Most have 4 -6 months of combat training of which include heavy weapons, firearms, close combat, throwing, and other skills such as tactics. The majority of the training is learning how to obey orders. I have been to the range with many of them and the skills definitely fall into the 1-2 category. Just enough familiarity to handle and shoot the weapon. Marksmen are about 4, and snipers in the 5-6 range. You don't need super high dicepools to be effective and considering the actual combat range tends to be less than 100 meters it puts the high dice pools as unrealistic. I hardly consider most soldiers professionals in the firearm category. Most are 0-4 years with limited firearms experience to once a month on the range. Units are determined more by unit cohesion and tactics over high skills. This is what should be reflected is less the dice pools and more how the unit operates in the tactical sense (smoke, suppressive fire, outflanking).

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

Your anecdotal evidence is...well...anecdotal.

The books give us descriptors of what skill levels apply to "average" characters, and it's pretty rock-solid that a 3 is a sturdy example for a military grunt's ability to fire his issued weapon.

I'd also disagree with your initial post, in that you're giving every single grunt mil-spec armor. Mil-spec armor has, traditionally, required it be tailor made to fit whoever's going to wear it (on top of being expensive as all get out). You don't get "tailor made" of much of anything in the service.

kzt

Jul 15 2010, 07:14 AM

QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 14 2010, 11:48 PM)

I'd also disagree with your initial post, in that you're giving every single grunt mil-spec armor. Mil-spec armor has, traditionally, required it be tailor made to fit whoever's going to wear it (on top of being expensive as all get out). You don't get "tailor made" of much of anything in the service.

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

LivingOxymoron

Jul 15 2010, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 14 2010, 11:14 PM)

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

Arsenal pg.50

QUOTE

Adjusting military-grade armor to another person than the one it was made for is very difficult. Even with the technical knowledge and the right tools, this is a time-consuming task that can only be performed to adjust the armor to a new person with roughly the same physical traits as the original user (the details are up to the gamemaster’s discretion).

Based on the description, it seems like the suits are tailor made to a specific individual and are not modular. Remember, its a fully integrated soft and hard suit that gains special benefits beyond just the armor rating based on the fact that it fits so well and is tailored to a specific person's ergonomics as well as their basic measurements.

In all honesty, its like the Marine Dress Blues. Sure, you buy them off the rack in certain standard sizes, but they're tailored to be form-fitted. Once you go through that initial tailoring, its very hard to have them tailored to a different person even if they have the same off the rack size as you. Hell, I know lifers who've had to get a new set of blues in their later years because they couldn't tailor them anymore. And this is just a cloth uniform. When you integrate hard armor into the mix, it probably gets really complicated.

Critias

Jul 15 2010, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (kzt @ Jul 15 2010, 03:14 AM)

What you have is a room full of bins of parts that the battalion armorer uses to assemble a set of armor to fit a given troop. "Hmm, he needs a 37cm left forearm and a 38 cm right forearm. Bins 47a and 65c." Works just like that warehouse where they issue you clothing.

Whether that method could bypass the custom-tailored requirements or not (which it's hard to say, since the book itself even says "leave it up to the GM"), and whether it would be cost effective and logistically easy enough to do so...sorry, but I still just don't see the military shelling out 31,500 for the armor alone on every single grunt. In a perfect world, where the grunts made the decisions, sure, maybe they'd all have 12/10 armor ratings, built in ruthenium coating, and strength and mobility enhancements.

As it is, in the cost-effective Shadowrun future, I picture your average, everyday, soldier in a 1,300 nuyen camoflauge suit + helmet, still getting 9/8 protection, sorry.

QUOTE

And it's been obvious for years that the skill table is absurdly stupid, because the total dice pool is what matters in SR. If you have 8 dice it doesn't matter how you get them.

Whether you like the skill table or not, it's what we've got. Someone arguing that grunts should have a 1-2 because the guys he shoots with aren't any good is hardly grounds for throwing the table out the window and agreeing that your average infantryman can't hit the broad side of the barn.

IKerensky

Jul 15 2010, 08:44 AM

Arsenal Pg.50 talk specifically about adjusting a Military Armor you manage to get your hand on to another people than the one that got it at start.

IMDNSHO, it doesnt cover the situation where you have access to a lot of Military Grade Armor and just have to adjust it/them to the current grunt, you dont lack of parts to switch/adjust with.

And remember that they are MILITARY GRADE armors, I simply cannot imagine armors made for military not being somewhat standardised in production.

IKerensky

Jul 15 2010, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 15 2010, 08:38 AM)

Whether that method could bypass the custom-tailored requirements or not (which it's hard to say, since the book itself even says "leave it up to the GM"), and whether it would be cost effective and logistically easy enough to do so...sorry, but I still just don't see the military shelling out 31,500 for the armor alone on every single grunt. In a perfect world, where the grunts made the decisions, sure, maybe they'd all have 12/10 armor ratings, built in ruthenium coating, and strength and mobility enhancements.

And you are sorely wrong, Grunt equipement are very costly, that is just puny compared to a vehicule but it is significant.

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/334060_soldier03.html

"Soldier's gear costs $17,500 and is rising
Price expected to reach $60,000 in next decade"

If a Grunt gear cost 60.000$ by 2017, I really see no problem with equiping them of 30.000 ny armors by 2070.

Critias

Jul 15 2010, 09:36 AM

*shrugs* Suit yourself, I guess. Put every single soldier in $30k worth of armor (while simultaneously only training them to a 1-2 in Automatics), and have yourself a blast. That gear's more Halo than Shadowrun, to me, though, and I know what basic armor soldiers will be wearing in my games.

IKerensky

Jul 15 2010, 11:05 AM

You're entitled to equip the military as you wich. But you were on the opinion that it was illogical for them to spent lots of money to equip basic grunt, I just pointed out a reality reference that this isn't the case.

And MY grunts wont have level 1-2 in automatic, they will be level 3, with a smartlinked weapon, a speciality with their service weapon and a tacnet centralised to the company level with one dedicated hacker on overwatch and a black ICE in patrol. Every man Commlink will be connected to the Platoon leader one that will be connected directly to the company level and thus very secured (above 6 rating). And if course military armor, a few drones for overwatch and ammo supply and possibly one spirit in Overwatch by platoon (or Astral sensing ligthstick and a few Astral Smoke grenade, buying time to call for Combatmages to send help).

Rand

Jul 15 2010, 11:35 AM

Omenowl: I think that the current skill ratings bear out. When you combine the average attribute (3) with the average professional skill rating (3) you get a 6 die pool. Now, when you start introducing negative die mods - and just about every single combat scenario will have them - that die pool really starts to slip away. (Which means that Blind Fire (-6) is actually blind fire...) Afterwards you have, maybe, a 50/50 chance of hitting - which is generally much better than in RL. The vast majority of shots miss in RL, not so in SR (which I have described as "deadlier than RL). Of course, shadowrunners are jacked-up uber-steroid combat monsters with die pools in the 9-12 range (average), or even 13-15 (upper end). Even Blind-Fire isn't much of a problem with those levels.

IKerensky: I have found that if you want something to be able torespond wuick enough to make a difference in SR they have to be able to get there in 1-2 combat rounds (or sooner). Since I have been playing SR4 I have never.....NEVER had a combat last more than 2 rounds. With the way it works, with some people getting 3 actions in a single round, unless you are throwing high numbers of opponents (which becomes too overwhelming after a while) combats do not last long enough for "reserve" forces to come into play, only set up another fight a little while later.

MortVent

Jul 15 2010, 11:54 AM

Most military troops are going to fall into two groups:

Low retention and high retention personel

They are going to want to balance long term costs with retention : so low retention troops don't get the personalized armor and implants (they want to cut costs on them as much as possible), but the ones that are lifers may very well get the personalized gear (and it's mostly going to be for advanced troops and special forces, not the GI troops)

Most militaries are looking into cutting costs on troops and getting more for the buck vs spending more on them and not getting much back.

I see the military armor being more for the advanced units vs the average units. Rather than equip the standard troops in it you put the assualt units in it. (think more like specialists vs the generalists. Rangers would get it, but the infantry gets armor jackets and helmets)

Rand

Jul 15 2010, 12:10 PM

The problem with the retention / non-retention idea is that those 2 types reside within the same unit, and you do not give one guy (re-upper) this really cool stuff while giving the guy next to him (non re-upper) 8-10 generational hand-me-downs. That wouldn't go over well. ("But sarge! I need the new Dragon Armor too!")

The units that need the more expensive, specialized gear are the one that get it. The ones that don't, well it doesn't matter how many of them will be re-upping, they still are getting their basic issue. In most cases, even if they were able to get better gear on their own, they aren't allowed to because it isn't part of their official uniform. So, FFBA is ok, so long as it cannot be seen normally, but buying yourself the Full-Body Armor while the rest of your platoon has the regular Cammies is a no-no. At least, you couldn't wear it when you wanted, on liberty sure, but not as a part of any unit operations.

As for augmenting the basic trooper: HELL NO! It isn't just the cost of the implant, but the operation*, any complications that may arrise, plus the fact what do they do with them when the guy gets out? Rip it out of them? If I had to turn back in my M16A2, I am sure they would want their Wired Reflexes-1 back!

*Primarily because you would have to have a huge staff of medical professionals on hand to just do the augmentation, as well as dealing with any complications. Imagine several hospitals full of personnel to just handle the augmentations. Very expensive. Even outsourcing would be too much.

D2F

Jul 15 2010, 12:26 PM

QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jul 15 2010, 04:26 AM)

Only problem is the typical soldier/grunt is a poor shot. Most have 4 -6 months of combat training of which include heavy weapons, firearms, close combat, throwing, and other skills such as tactics. The majority of the training is learning how to obey orders. I have been to the range with many of them and the skills definitely fall into the 1-2 category. Just enough familiarity to handle and shoot the weapon. Marksmen are about 4, and snipers in the 5-6 range. You don't need super high dicepools to be effective and considering the actual combat range tends to be less than 100 meters it puts the high dice pools as unrealistic. I hardly consider most soldiers professionals in the firearm category. Most are 0-4 years with limited firearms experience to once a month on the range. Units are determined more by unit cohesion and tactics over high skills. This is what should be reflected is less the dice pools and more how the unit operates in the tactical sense (smoke, suppressive fire, outflanking).

We are not talking if you can hit a stationary target in a non threatening environment. Most of us can do ok in that situation. The dice pools are to reflect an adrenaline fear filled environment where your opponent is shooting back and mostly obscured. Accuracy drops tremendously in these situations and this is where the dice pools count.

I call your opinion and raise it by a quote from the BBB (Yeah, I know, string raises are illegal. Sue me!):

QUOTE (SR4A p.119)

Rating 3 Professional
Competent at general skilled tasks. “Average” skill level for starting characters and NPCs.
[...]
Firearms Example: Regular beat cop or military grunt.
[...]
Rating 4 Veteran
Very good at what you do; can handle difficult tasks with ease.
[...]
Firearms Example: Riot control cop, combat veteran, superior regular force
(Marines, Airborne)
[...]
Rating 5 Expert
Star status: your expertise gives you a reputation.
[...]
Firearms Example: SWAT team, elite military (Rangers, Special Forces).
[...]
Rating 6 Elite
The “best of the rest.” Maximum skill level for “rank-and-file” unnamed
NPCs and starting characters.
[...]
Firearms Example: Individual superstars amongst elite forces.

I don't think there is really any room for argument here.

Yerameyahu

Jul 15 2010, 12:33 PM

Snrk. D2F, that makes you the 4th person to point that out.

IKerensky

Jul 15 2010, 01:16 PM

Can I point it out too, please, pleaaaaasse ???

Yerameyahu

Jul 15 2010, 01:34 PM

NO.

D2F

Jul 15 2010, 01:49 PM

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 15 2010, 01:33 PM)

Snrk. D2F, that makes you the 4th person to point that out.

Yeah, I reply in the order I read posts. It's a bad habit, I know, but old dogs don't learn new tricks easy.

Brazilian_Shinobi

Jul 15 2010, 01:53 PM

QUOTE (Rand @ Jul 15 2010, 09:10 AM)

As for augmenting the basic trooper: HELL NO! It isn't just the cost of the implant, but the operation*, any complications that may arrise, plus the fact what do they do with them when the guy gets out? Rip it out of them? If I had to turn back in my M16A2, I am sure they would want their Wired Reflexes-1 back!

*Primarily because you would have to have a huge staff of medical professionals on hand to just do the augmentation, as well as dealing with any complications. Imagine several hospitals full of personnel to just handle the augmentations. Very expensive. Even outsourcing would be too much.

Man. I spend a whole day wihtout posting and suddenly this thread raises by a 100 posts? Yo have A LOT of free time.

Anyway, this was discussed before in one of the threads discussing ware for former military and stuff. Theoretically, the military could deactivate the Wired Reflexes after you leave service. Of course, it doesn't mean you couldn't go to a street doc and get it back on line, but for the who will spend the rest of his life in legality and possibly on reserve It would be fine to keep the WR since if he is called they can activate it back.
Anyway, on the whole drone-army thing. I do believe that we will have an army most filled with drones in the near-future UNTIL jamming/disabling/disrupting communication technologies keep up to encryption technology and then people will have to add more meat to the army again, possibly using a mixed group.

Doc Chase

Jul 15 2010, 02:33 PM

What cyberware would be offered? I don't think there's really any point to having smartlinks or cybereyes installed when you can have that functionality in a pair of goggles that come with their helmet. Any outpatient installation would be done to repair combat damage - get an eye shot out, they'll replace them with a cybered pair or regrow new ones. The 2070 equivalent of TRICARE is going to pay about the same amount, and they'll likely have the cybereyes on hand.

Get your eyes fried on Wednesday, lay up Thursday in Medical while they go over your options, get the eyes replaced Friday, by Monday muster you're ready to report for duty. As long as it's not heavily invasive like Wired Reflexes or dermal plating, it can be done on the cheap in an afternoon.

Warlordtheft

Jul 15 2010, 03:45 PM

In older editions of SR, cyber was more expensive and therefore the average trooper had very little if any. Mostly things like Eyes, smartgun links and the like. I think on thing you'll see is a lot of variation based on role.

Special forces (Delta, Seals, Ares Firewatch): These guys are the equivalent of a top notch shadowrunner. Probably between 500 BP and 600 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 700 to 800. Cyber and bio is all alpha or better with some delta grade stuff. Magic is a 6 or higher, with multiple initiate levels, and spirits and Foci up the yin/yang and of high (5+) rating. Matrix support is going to be top of the line, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be what ever is needed for the mission. Weapons will be milspec but fitted to the mission, armor will vary depending on mission. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has a couple of million invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 5+.

Elite forces (Marines, Rangers, Airborne): These guys are the equivalent of an average shadowrunner. Probably between 450 BP and 500 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 550 to 600.
Cyber and bio is available with most getting basic and alpha grade. Magic is a 4 to 7, with a few initiate levels, spirits and foci are typically at rating 3 or 4, a Matrix support is still going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be at the platoon level and will be around 1 drone rigger and 1 comm specialist (hacker). Weapons will be milspec, but standard and armor will be military grade but will vary depending on each soldiers role. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has almost 1 million invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 4 to 6.

Regular forces (US Infantry): These guys are slightly less than the equivalent of a beginner shadowrunner. Probably between 350 BP and 400 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 401 to 500. Cyber and bio is limited, all basic available with most getting basic and alpha grade. Magic is a 3 to 5, with no or one initiate level, spirits and foci are typically at rating 2 or 3, a Matrix support is going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be at the company level and will be around 4 drone riggers. A comm specialist (hacker) will be available for each platoon. Weapons will be milspec, but standard and armor will be light military grade or security armor. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has no more than $500,000 invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 3 to 4.

Logistics troops: These guys are well below the equivalent of a beginning shadowrunner. Probably between 300 BP and 400 BP. Some guys may be higher, like 401 to 500--but are extremely rare. Cyber and bio is limited and not typical. Magic is not assigned, spirits may be present with a rating 2 to 4, Matrix support is going to be top of the line as well, so firewalls and other programs are going to be 8+. Drone/logistics support will be there, but is mostly noncombatant. A comm specialist (hacker) will not be available unless needed. Weapons will be carbines and other small arms. Armor will be a Jacket and helmet. The sponsor (corp/government/NGO etc) probably has no more than $100,000 invested in each trooper. Combat skills are 2 to 4.

stevebugge

Jul 15 2010, 04:15 PM

I think that Grunts in a Conscript Army probably would have skills mostly in the 2 range, which would refelct a selection process more along the lines of You are 16 or older, can see and hear adequately, and able to walk, OK here's your AK-97 and two magazines, go over there and get a little range time before we ship out. In 2070 a lot of nations probably do use this type of grunt to fill out their armies, which may include a lot of Aztlan's Yucatan Force. But for professional Volunteer Armies (UCAS, CAS) or Mandatory Service Armies where it's taken seriously as a patriotic duty (IDF) Skills of 3 for anyone who has completed training should be the norm, and a few 4's for longer serving veterans.

Sengir

Jul 15 2010, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jul 15 2010, 12:22 AM)

However at the same time it also invites all of those parties to try to do exactly those sorts of things in a way that cannot be traced back to them.

That's why the law is secret, the CC does not want people to think about the possiblity

And developing things like ASAT missiles or crash worms tends to leave traces...those traces might only be found until after the strike, but they WILL be found and the megas WILL be extremely unhappy at what you did.

IKerensky

Jul 15 2010, 05:07 PM

And dont forget one thing about Magic User in the Army : they are part of an organisation that could help them Initiate/progress. It make sense that all the incorporated magicians are trained in a specific tradition and join special organisation (especially if drafted young).

simplexio

Jul 15 2010, 06:00 PM

Personally, i think that you are talking totally wrong thing here. it isn't skill which is important, it's overall performance. In my time in Finnish army, after i did manage to shoot at least X points in test (can't remember test name or score) no one asked me to go shooting. There was few guys who had to go range even after 6 months in service with new guys to shoot.

So in Conscription army i would say that there actually quite many people who don't actually have any skill, they just have enough talent to task and technical helpers. So in game terms, how much you need to have dice so that you can hit man sized target in 150 meters, which does not move and you have 3 seconds time to shoot ? There is your base level for all logistic people, artillery and drivers ( some may have much more, but everyone has at least some level performance)

Dumori

Jul 15 2010, 06:06 PM

I agreee that straight off boot camp would be a 1-2 but a grunt with almost any combat experience I see as a 3. So unless they are as green as grass they are a 3.

toturi

Jul 16 2010, 03:36 AM

QUOTE (simplexio @ Jul 16 2010, 02:00 AM)

Personally, i think that you are talking totally wrong thing here. it isn't skill which is important, it's overall performance. In my time in Finnish army, after i did manage to shoot at least X points in test (can't remember test name or score) no one asked me to go shooting. There was few guys who had to go range even after 6 months in service with new guys to shoot.

So in Conscription army i would say that there actually quite many people who don't actually have any skill, they just have enough talent to task and technical helpers. So in game terms, how much you need to have dice so that you can hit man sized target in 150 meters, which does not move and you have 3 seconds time to shoot ? There is your base level for all logistic people, artillery and drivers ( some may have much more, but everyone has at least some level performance)

Overall performance in SR is a combination of both skill and attribute. So someone who lacks natural coordination, or some other facet of Agility, can still be trained to a level that enables him to qualify and pass his shooting test, but this low Agility guy needs higher skill to compensate.

Remember that someone with no skill actually defaults. In game terms, the lowest difficulty threshold is 1. To get 1 on average, you need about 3 dice. Since nobody is shooting at you, I would say that 4 dice is sufficient to trade for 1 success.

From my time in the Singapore army (which is mostly a conscript/mandatory service force), I would say that the man-sized target at 300m (ours is at 300m), is there to give freebie points to the shooter. And if you can miss that, god help you on the other trickier targets; when you have run a hundred meters, sweat is getting into your eye, the hot tropical sun has baked the ground to oven heat, and now there are more than 1 fucking moving targets that you to bring down in a limited time. And then there are the torso and head shot targets, albeit at closer range. All that is in the day. There's more fun and games at night (which I do not enjoy since I have nightblindness; -6 to dice pool means I miss most of my shots unless I Edge

).

Cang

Jul 16 2010, 03:59 AM

On the note of nations not wanting to drop money on its grunts, i was given $15k to server 6 years in the Air National Guard. Yup, no real combat going on here in Missouri. I would think that they would spend something like that on a soldier to enhance him. I figure they can cyber up grunts with some removable and traceable wares and make then sign long standing contracts to get their moneys worth. This is a time where 16 and 18 hour work days are the norm. Making someone sign up for 6 to 10 years is not that big a deal. Not to mention the huge pool of poor the military can pick up and the amount of skill wires they can pump in a soldier for cheap. I think a grunt in the Army would be a well rounded 400 point character after all their training and some experience.

Minchandre

Jul 16 2010, 04:07 AM

This wikianswer estimates that the US spends well over $400k for every infantryman they train.

Apathy

Jul 16 2010, 02:56 PM

In response to the general "What would the makeup of the Army look like, re-posting from an older thread:

[ Spoiler ]

Ultimately for any force, form follows function. A well-funded CAS military which is primarily geared toward border defense and major conflicts in urban/suburban environments against large trained Atzlan and American Indian militaries will look very different than an army that is primarily focused on insurgency suppression. Economic and cultural factors would also weigh heavily. My take on things is below:

UCAS: Strong economy, relatively stable relationships with neighbors, minimal civilian unrest. The military would have a relatively small core of professional soldiers and augment heavily with Reserve/Nat'l Guard forces. Heavy use of drones and matrix as force multipliers. National Guard might encourage installation of skillwires sets, as it can increase combat effectiveness of troops despite minimal training, and because the skills can be replaced with practical corporate skills when they're released back into the civilian population. Military would primarily use small mobile strike teams for offensive force projection (hit squads, sabotage, etc). Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

CAS: Strong economy, heavily-contested southern border, minimal civilian unrest. Would have a larger standing army. Would also use drones and matrix as force multipliers, and would have a greater emphasis than UCAS on heavy armor, artillery and air superiority to counter Atzlaners. Due to scarcity of mages, magical resources would be consolidated at Battalion/Brigade level and attached to individual units on a mission-by-mission basis.

NAN: Growning economy, minor civil unrest related to second-rate status of large [non-indian] percentage of population. Perception of threats from larger nations on all sides. Cultural support for magic users, who are seen as the 'edge' that NAN has had against CAS/UCAS. Mages would be more numerous and integrated at company level with regular forces.

Atzlan: Stagnant economy, significant and protracted internal unrest as well as threats from the more technically savy and economically healthy CAS and the magically powerful Amazonia. Authoritarian centralized government. Atzlan military is as much about quelling threats from within as it is about sparring with neighboring countries. As a result, they'll have a large standing army, and probably a mandatory service obligation for all [poor] citizens. Many boots on the ground allows them to keep their own country in check and provides social conditioning/brainwashing of most of the population. The government would stay in fear of military coup, and would therefore maintain tight centralized control of special assets like magical firepower, matrix support, and drones. Military would have parallel ranks of attached 'advisors' down to the company level to look for insufficient patriotism/loyalty. Tactics would not be closer to soviet massed assaults than Iranian human wave charges, but would still have less efficient use of force multipliers than any of their northern neighbors.

Amazonia: Stagnant economy, independant anti-establishment population. Militant new age hippie anarchists. Heavily magical with distrust of technology. Defense would be highly decentralized - more like groups of individual warlords than a unified fighting force. Heavy use of magic and general distrust of tech which minimizes matrix or drone use. Special assets are released down to the platoon level, and there would be inconsistencies in setup and resources of battalions from one region to the next. All units are supplied with environmental liasons to minimize interference with- and cooperation maximize cooperation from local inhabitants.

PBTHHHHT

Jul 16 2010, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (toturi @ Jul 15 2010, 10:36 PM)

All that is in the day. There's more fun and games at night (which I do not enjoy since I have nightblindness; -6 to dice pool means I miss most of my shots unless I Edge

).

Well, at least you're human so you can spend that extra edge point.

Bira

Jul 16 2010, 07:56 PM

To answer the original question, a starting Shadowrunner team seems to be roughly on par with a special forces unit in terms of skill, if you compare some of the archetypes with the actual special forces in the NPC chapters. Even in the Sixth world, your standard grunt is likely to be an unaugmented dude equipped with gear that doesn't even exceed the availability limits for starting characters, so a team of runners will likely have a big advantage against them.

An actual team of Red Samurai or Ghosts is supposed to be a big challenge to a runner team. A group of normal infantry is likely to be only a little harder than the corpsec guards or standard cops presented in the corebook.

D2F

Jul 16 2010, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (Bira @ Jul 16 2010, 07:56 PM)

To answer the original question, a starting Shadowrunner team seems to be roughly on par with a special forces unit in terms of skill, if you compare some of the archetypes with the actual special forces in the NPC chapters. Even in the Sixth world, your standard grunt is likely to be an unaugmented dude equipped with gear that doesn't even exceed the availability limits for starting characters, so a team of runners will likely have a big advantage against them.

An actual team of Red Samurai or Ghosts is supposed to be a big challenge to a runner team. A group of normal infantry is likely to be only a little harder than the corpsec guards or standard cops presented in the corebook.

The Special Forces you mentioned are SIGNIFICANTLY better statted and geared than your average Shadowrunner. You contradict your very own statement.

Bira

Jul 16 2010, 08:27 PM

I don't actually see much difference between the stats of a Red Samurai member (who's supposed to be one of the toughest special forces around) and the sample Street Samurai. The latter even has an extra die for shooting with his weapon, I think. The armor for the Samurai and Ghosts is certainly better than what a starting runner can scrounge up, and the Ghosts may be a couple dice ahead of a starting street sam, but that's OK. That's why I said "roughly".

The point is, a normal military grunt will be way behind both of them in terms of "raw power". He'll probably be more or less comparable to the Lone Star Cop statted one page before the Red Samurai. Add Automatics, jiggle the gear a bit, and there you go. A starting runner team will beat even a full squad of these guys, assuming they're built for combat at all. If your PCs are a bunch of accountants, though, or a small orichalchum-making operation, then, well, they shouldn't even get to meet actual soldiers as an opposing force.

Tzeentch

Jul 16 2010, 08:30 PM

-- So is the

400K soldier the military variant of the pink mohawk (green mohawk)? I still can't believe people are using current US military expenditures as being relevant though

-- I liked Apathy's breakdown. Good starting point.

Yerameyahu

Jul 16 2010, 08:31 PM

I keep hearing 'average shadowrunners' or 'average team', but we addressed this earlier in the thread: the average runner team isn't 100% combat. Maybe 75%, maybe less? My impression was that we were comparing something like a 'shadowrunner combat team' against military squads, but I dunno.

Doc Chase

Jul 16 2010, 08:42 PM

A 400bp troll versus your average combat unit.

Give him some security armor and he's set!

Minchandre

Jul 16 2010, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jul 16 2010, 02:30 PM)

-- So is the

400K soldier the military variant of the pink mohawk (green mohawk)? I still can't believe people are using current US military expenditures as being relevant though

It was $400k. Who knows what inflation and exchange rates will do to that in the intervening 60 years. But the point is that training people is expensive, and that the military will probably be willing to shell out for good weapons, 'ware, and drone support because of the cost of each naked soldier (at least, developed nations will).

toturi

Jul 16 2010, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jul 17 2010, 01:37 AM)

Well, at least you're human so you can spend that extra edge point.

Well, I must have only Edge 2 since I missed all but 2 of my night shots except the silhouettes where they backlight the targets brightly.

Voran

Jul 20 2010, 10:14 PM

I think it depends on several factors:

1)Who has the advantage of setting/environment. Not all military types are setup for close quarters combat or urban combat. Not all runners are adept in areas OUTSIDE urban environments.

2)Skill levels. General riflemen? SAS operatives? Newbie Runners? Hardened Street Vets?

3)Related to 2, cohesion and previous activity experience with existing group. In either case, slapping together a group of guys that have never worked with each other will have different challenges than groups that have experience with each other.

4)Goal of encounter. What constitutes victory? Military approaches tend to have more straightforward goals and intentions, Shadowrunners ops can have waaay different parameters.

5)What else do they bring? Magic has been noted, but also equipment. Runners tend to be ....varied...in their gear, you've got the pistols dude, the akimbo assault rifle dude, the ninja the hand to hand warrior, etc.