yay! this subject again! Can't we all just admit that there's legitimate reason for argument here, and we're going to disagree about it?

MEH?! Sounds like some 4th ed sillyness...

You don't resist a flame thrower with counterspelling, gee I wonder what the difference between the two could possibly be. Also it's Reaction + Counterspelling to dodge not Body + Armor + Counterspelling to resist, it doesn't really matter for this argument's sake but just FYI.

It is what it is... You May not like it, but there you go... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Wasn't the discussion 4 pages ago about how Fear is an "I Win" button for Ghosts and Draculas? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Also, Mr. Irwin's production team is very good at counterspelling.

Force six you say:
If you have a high enought dice pool(around 18) to get 3 nethits any heavypistol loaded with APDS works.
If not Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with same only needs the one nethit reguired to hit.
As does a shotgun loaded with APDS
Assault rifle loaded with APDS needs 2 nethits.
PJSS shooting both barrels needs 2 nethits, using standart ammo adding EX-EX or APDS drops that to 1 nethit while shooting only one barrel.

Thats few ideas for you, mostly all that comes in the firearms section after assault rifles work nicely.

First off, APDS rounds aren't issued to normal guards.

Secondly, you're still arguing that ItNW is apparently easy to bypass which was MY point. Your point was that removing the hardening was a nerf to spirits. Apparently you've thought about it and remembered that the hardening isn't that big a deal?

Everybody talks rules, nobody talks response. If your three mundane guards in the scenario encounter a runner team and are attacked by not only spells, but a spirit, what do you think they're gonna do? Call for backup! "Jesus fragging christ, send help! These guys have us pinned down, they got a spellslinger and there's A FRAGGING GHOST! SEND S.W.A.T., DAMMIT! NOW!!!" After that its a matter of falling back, staying alive and issueing a lockdown on the facility.

Just popped up:
STR24 Cyclops well versed in anything STR related under SR3.
And no, the STR23 Giant is not allowed either <.<

I think you have some misunderstandings about the mechanics of SnS.

For example an assault rifle with APDS has 6DV/-5AP. SnS ammo does 6DV/-(spirit force)AP, so equal at force 5 and better for higher force spirits.

Shotguns with APDS are 1 point closer to SnS in terms of penetrating high force spirits, but you're still much better off with an Automatic with SnS that lets you pump up the DV with more bullets so you take it down, or wide bursting if you're worried about not hitting it.

Not to mention that APDS has 16F availibility...

Burst doesn't help at over coming armor, so your much better of just getting bigger guns if your against spirit higher then force 6.
Up to force 6 you dont neccesary need S&S (if you can use atleast a heavy pistol) and after that S&S doesn't work anymore(too slow damagecode) and you just need bigger guns.

That wasn't what I said. I said that burst allowed you to actually kill the spirit AFTER you penetrated the hardening. Even if your APDS shotgun defeats hardening, a force 7 spirit is still going to have close to 20 dice to soak your measly 7+hits DV.



SnS works fine against high spirits, didn't you see the numbers above?

An example vs a force 7 spirit which has 14 armor.

Shotgun with APDS has a 7DV/-5AP code. That's 7+hits DV that has to beat 14-5=9 armor, so you need 3 net hits to penetrate.

A SnS round has 6DV/-half AP. That's 6+hits DV to beat 14/2=7 armor, so it needs 2 net hits to penetrate.

So it is easier to penetrate with SnS.

Once you penetrate, the shotgun is up 1 DV but facing 2 more points of armor, which gives a small advantage to the shotgun.

However, if we were firing a long narrow burst with the SnS, that would give +5DV, so now the SnS burst does 4 more DV and faces 2 less armor than your shotgun APDS. And that's on top of easier penetration. Even a shot burst would be 1 more DV and 2 less armor.

Automatics with SnS beats shotgun APDS hands down.

That why i succested the douple barreled shotgun agains force 7 spirits in my original list up there earlier.

The biggest fallacy in this is, that shotguns can have BF and FA modes too

And really after force 7 S&S starts to need an absurdly high amount of hits to work, as opposed to for example barret with APDS that needs only the 1 nethit to damage a force 9 spirit.
After force 9 its pretty much down to gausrifle thats good up to force 13-15.
Well missile/rocket launcher and mortars with right ammo work too.

The point being force 6+ spirits should be murder to anyone not prepared to deal with them. John Q security guard should expect the same result vs a force 6 spirit as they would against a decent street sam, or a pack of steel lynx, to either hide and call for backup, or to wind up in a pine box.

FA-modded shotguns with mooks managing long burst recoil? Please.



SnS only needs 1 extra hit per extra force, unlike your APDS shotgun which needs 2, and was already behind at force 7. And you can "buy" that extra hit with 1 attack dice with called shots. SnS is still a better option and only gets more ahead as force increases.

And yes, obviously there are even better options. An 18F availibility sniper rifle that costs 9k firing 16F ammo is better than a machine pistol firing SnS, sure. But grunts are more likely to have magical support than carry gear like that. And if the players start throwing around force 9 spirits, I guess they're entitled to walk over the grunts.

Obviously. I am not advocating that a simple grunt can easily take down a force 6 spirit that is used wisely. I am saying that because RAW SnS ammo lets even John Q security guard overcome a force 6 spirit's hardened armor, spirits are not nerfed in any way by my house rule that removes the hardened armor.

There are 2 things I don't want: a) that everyone has to carry SnS to counter spirits. b) that anything short of very unsubtle armor or vehicles can just stand in front af squad of grunts with pistols and not die. I'm am happy that the player can use the spirit intelligently to take out the guards, but having the spirit invulnerable so he can just summon it and order it to take them out head on, that really isn't fun for anyone, neither me nor the mage nor the other players.

QFT. Also, see my sig. This is my only house rule. I remind my players that this is an RPG where we are ALL trying to have fun (myself as GM included), not a computer simulation that you are trying to break.

In case Synner'a/Scratch's views on stacking multipliers match the current official view....

"Bad math" is disallowed. 80% of 80% is 64%, not 60%.

Actually, it's more evilgm than that... there's no record that you ARE there. Plus, I hope you get sameday medical results from your labwork or you may have issues there too.

The quality is pretty specific that the information wiped is negative, so you'll still get your lab work.

Unless it's positive for that disease you went in to test for...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You're kidding me, right? You're telling me that direct quotes from the 4th Ed book are wrong? Please post proof of your statement. Thanks.

Unless you like your arguments to be completely baseless.

Just a note: If you're throwing a Spirit at a bunch of Mundanes, have some roleplaying involved to find a supposed weakness to the Spirit. IE There is a discarded text nearby used to summon the spirit and they have to decipher it while it pummels on their friends.
Otherwise, Pick another adventure.

For the game I'm running I made character creation be based off of just the main book, with exceptions made if people asked me and explained why they wanted it. Obviously "Gimme a Cyber Skull cus I want to be all cyberlimbs" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I saw Overcasting Mystic Adepts earlier... Anyone else have people arguing with you that they can cast at full magic (Magic for casting + magic for adepts) without it being physical? granted it doesn't say it exactly in the books but as per the FAQ on the site, "for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower. "

That is one of the many totally wrong answers in the FAQ, the book clearly states you use full magic to determine max force and max level of adapt powers.
Only think you dont use full magic rating is determining how many dice you get from magic to using skill(sorcery,summoning) and powers.

It wasn't SR, but one of the best times I've had as a GM was with a character that took Amnesia and Haunted and said, "Please surprise me." The player had a real good time with it as well. Some players don't take to surprises well, but this guy was just pleased as punch when I threw things at him out of his unremembered past.

Where?

Edit: Rather, PM me where. Slightly off topic. I've seen no direct reference to Full magic related to max force. In reference to the mystic Adept.

This post has been edited by Technowired: Jul 27 2010, 06:28 PM