So what other places do you believe the FAQs are wrong?

I would have to read over it again. I do remember seeing several "bad rulings" on it. I would be happy, when I have time, to read it over and point out the specific examples, provided someone else doesn't beat me to the punch.

Look at the stats on SR4 railguns. AP = (X/2)-Y Where X is the armor of the target, and Y is some number taken off AFTER already 1/2ing the armor. The target would have to be in the middle of an armored vault for it to make much of a difference. A decent gauss gun would do ~12P, ap (1/2) - 6. So unless you're going through load bearing or armored walls, the round won't slow down at all.

Sure enough, though you can have information remain if you so choose... says so right in the Description of the Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Actually, it will... Physics dictates that it is so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Yeah, but there's no stats for physics.

The guass round will keep going until some other Barrier stops it.
.... though I think each target behind a wall gets to include the walls armor as a bonus. After a few walls, there should be a decent sized armor value to halve and -6. After a few more, it should finally plink off.

Indeed, which means the ammo/round is useless after it penetrates a few load bearing walls, as I could purchase automatic hits to not take damage... 2 Load bearing walls at Rating 32 Barriers provides an immediate 8 points of reduced damage, not counting any other walls or personal armor.

And I would actually apply the damage to each wall independantly, and blead off damage as it progressed rather than just letting it go through 30 walls to impact a target... that way leads madness... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Specializations, for one. The other one that lets Cellular Repair heal essence loss from HMHVV, well, if you think the FAQ supercedes rules just because its new means that Ghouls can benefit from it. Cause...ghoulitude does have essence loss from hmhvv!

You have to keep in mind that the FAQ was written in 2006, for shadowrun 4th.

Then along came anniversary edition, in 2009, and changed a bunch of minor rules in the background. You probably don't even know it, but scatter, mystic adepts, karma cost for attributes, skillwires, bows, and a handful of other minor things got updated.

THEN they made a NEW faq. And just tacked it on the end of the old faq, without bothering to check if any of the old rulings were still relevant.

So now we have a bunch of new users going 'BUT THE FAQ SEZ THIS, YOU'RE WRONG!' because catalyst is too fucking lazy to datestamp their FAQ answers.
Yes, the FAQ does say stuff, but its also often contradictory and throwing the game back half an edition because its four years out of date, and the rules have changed since then.
When in doubt, use the 4A rulebook. Its newer.

you realize regular rifle rounds go through quite a few walls before they slow down much? For what a Gauss rifle is supposed to be I would think it would go through most buildings before slowing down much. Buildings don't stop bullets well. to stop high velocity high density low cross section projectiles it takes fancy armor.

As far as I know the rules for specializations did not change in this regard between 4e and 4A. I think the FAQ is old argument gets played when ever someone disagrees with the FAQ. It may apply sometimes but sometimes it does not.

Yeah, but I don't care about how bullets work in real life. I know they go through walls just fine. But shadowrun is a fantasy game with fictional game mechanics. But now i'm curious how far it does penetrate.



Its worth mentioning that rating 32 barriers don't exist. Barriers have armor and structure, but not a general rating. Rating 32 is reserved for blast bunkers and nuclear fallout shelters, and i think its a little unfair to slap on a load bearing wall. Those are supposed to be very very sturdy, but not necessarily armored. Putting it at 32 puts that wall into 'even explosives can't kill it' range.

Lets think this through. A gauss rifle hits for 9P+ nethits at AP Half -2 (and can't get any more from ammo, because it uses gauss cannon rounds, sadly). As an Assault Cannon class weapon, it also has an extreme range of 1500 meters. (0.93 miles with a 400 nuyen imaging scope with zoom is scary when you think about it.)
Average material, such as ballistic glass, is armor 4 and structure 5.
Heavy material, such as hardwood, is 6 armor/7 structure.
Reinforced, such as security doors, armored glass, or kevlar wallboards is 12armor/11 structure
Structural, such as blick or plascrete 12 arm/11 struct.
Heavy Structural, such as concrete or metal beams is 16Arm/13Str
Armored/Reinforced, such as reinforced concrete 24Arm/15St

I think its fair to say that in the course of shooting through a building that Average through Heavy Structural is going to be the most common material.
When you shoot through a barrier, the weapon damage must be > than the barriers armor, but you apply AP first. Then, the target behind the wall gets the first barriers modified armor to its own. Structure doesn't come into it at all.

So a gauss rifle with one net hit at 10P shoots an Armored Material. 24 armor gets halved to 12, -4 to 8, which doesn't stop the round at all.
Unsurprisingly, on the other side of the room, there's another wall made of the same stuff, because rooms tend to have four walls. 24 armor + 8 armor is 32 armor, which gets halved to 16, then -4 to 12. the second wall stops the round.
On the other hand, a gauss rifle with 4 net hits(which isn't too hard to do with a specialty, a decent agility, and an external smartlink/laser sight, or even edge) would go through the wall. 3 hits isn't enough, because 9+3=12, which isn't MORE than the second walls modified armor.

So yeah. 4 hits on an gauss rifle enables Energizer Bunny mode. The round just keeps going, and going, and going....

Um and again that is what FAQS are for. There are for the places where things are not explicitly stated. If it is explicitly stated you do not need a FAQ, unless it is poorly worded. What force you can cast spells at is not explicitly stated people are interpreting it from a general rule. The FAQ if this is what the FAQ is currently intended to be does not directly contradict the RAW it is clarifying a general rule.

FAQ ain't raw.
Errata is RAW.
As long as something is not errataed, it is, per definitionem, RAW even if the FAQ states the complete opposite.

This has gotten me thinking, does the AP apply multiple times? Yeah, the AP is -half -6, but after it has applied AP to the first wall, does it get to apply AP again to the next wall (or even the target)? If it doesn't get to apply AP multiple times, then yeah, a few walls will quickly stop a round of any kind of weapon, because after a few walls the target will have 40+ points of armor.

Personally I don't see why AP would get to apply multiple times. AP doesn't apply multiple times when you stack armor after all.

But general rules aren't RAW for every situation that you can possibly imagine applying. When you have to interpret a general rule and figure out if it applies or not because it is not explicitly stated it is not RAW unless it ever gets clarified. It is just your tables interpretation of a general rule. And this is exactly what FAQs are supposed to deal with.

But still, FAQ is not RAW.
It's the INTENT of a rule as the one writing the FAQ thought it was supposed to be . .
Which is not neccesarely the intent the one who wrote the rule originally had in mind.
Which might be, again, something completely different than what you are reading into it.
Rules are RAW. Errata is RAW. FAQ is . . at best . . someone trying to explain a rule . .
And at worst, a complete contradiction of both a rule and an earlier errata to the rule.

No, one of the new FAQ rulings about two-weapon shooting changes Specializations to be included in the split, which is directly in contradiction to the 4A rulebook, which says that only Att+Skill are split, and that Specializations add to each -test- where they apply, and don't actually raise the skill they're on.

Yes, shooting through barriers rule does not change the AP of the weapon at all. It never goes away. The only thing I can think of that would reduce the AP is Smart armor. But yeah. AP represents how hard a round penetrates a targets. I don't see why a bullets AP would magically stop working when it goes through any barrier - because glass, plywood, cloth hanging, and other things that really don't stop bullets also have barrier ratings. Really, really weak barrier ratings, and your rule for eliminating the RP would have to apply to ALL barriers - or else it wouldn't make sense.

Bringing up stacked armor is a silly arguement becase armor doesn't stack in 4th edition.(you use the best you're wearing). FFBA is a -single- exception.

Well the ammo would be deforming upon striking each barrier giving it different characteristics so I could see an argument logically how it only applies once. I don't feel like reading all the rules on this area to find out since I don't think it will come into play enough for me to care.

Indeed I do... Yes rounds can penetrate... I do not argue that... My point is that those walls, that the round is penetrating, have an effect on the further penetration of the round... eventually (after a wall or two) the round has no more energy to punch through any longer, and it lodges in the wall.

Just because the rules do not spell that out in the mechanics of the game does not mean that it does not happen. If a GM tried to pull such a thing, I would comment on it... It breaks verisimilitude for the infinite wall penetrating round to continue to do so until it actually hits a person, then stops... That is a bunch of crap, and I am sure that you know that as well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I will use your numbers (Though note that your AP is off, you quoted -2, but used -4)... just a note...

But that round (with 4 Net Hits; 13 Damage) would then stop at the 3rd Wall, as it has expended its vast amount of energy on the 1st wall (Easily Penetrated) and the 2nd Wall (Not So easily penetrated on that one, but still through), so the 3rd wall will stop it (Remember, add the values of the previous walls armor to the next)... After all, 24/2-4 = 8; 24+8=32/2-4 Equal 12; 32+12/2-4=18, which stops the round according to your calculations. Simple math at that point...

Just Sayin'

No, I'm not saying one barrier takes all the AP. I'm saying that if you have an AP of 5 on the bullet, and the first barrier has an armor of 3, then 3 of the AP gets used up, and when it strikes the next target/barrier, it only has 2 AP remaining. This would essentially be the same as the AP 'running out' as it goes through the armor that the character is wearing. I think it makes more sense, as the bullet goes through more barriers, it should have less and less penetrating power. Sure, a bullet can go through a sheet of plywood no problem, but put a dozen sheets of plywood in the way, and you might have something that helps out.

But Shinobi, I think that you are missing the point, especially about the Limits for the Mystic Adept... It is specifically stated in the RAW (SR4A Rulebook) what it allows... the FAQ contradicts this... therefore, since the FAQ is not RAW (It is not an errata), RAW supersedes...

Seems I misunderstood you.

Per RAW, it is the armor rating of the barrier that is added to the target's armor, not the modified armor value. This is equivalent to apply AP only once, but the other way around: instead of "running out" of AP after the first wall, AP is only applied on the last wall. In your example, you should add 24 to the second wall, not 8, then apply the Gauss cannon -half and AP.

I think that as long as you are using the rules to shoot something through barriers, you should check only once, on the final target. If there are several barriers, you add all the armor ratings together, then apply AP and check for penetration. More detailed computations would only tell you which barrier stopped the bullet, but who cares about that?