Sniper Rifles In Combat, Do they all get borked? Options

[Dumori]

The G3 has also been made in sniper configurations with a better barrel, scope and bipod and maybe a few more changes.

[The Grue Master]

I posted a new topic with a few potential battle rifle concepts. I'd love feedback mostly on the DV and AP values of a heavier rifle. Also, I'm not too concerned about modern firearms as a restriction on designs; SR is a futuristic game for fantasy/cyberpunk enthusiasts. I'm as interested in creating Jayne's Vera from Firefly as I am in making the G3 or Mk14 mod 0 EBR. Thanks for all the comments so far!

[Yerameyahu]

The G3 is not an assault rifle. It's a battle rifle, which category of firearms *is* sometimes FA. But, I'm moving to the other thread with this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cabral]

Normally, if I'm not too knowledgeable on a subject, I'll check Wikipedia for an article. The article is pretty extensive, I'll leave it to someone else to evaluate its accuracy.

Relevant to this conversation is the following:

When installed, barrels are often free-floated, i.e., installed so the barrel only contacts the rest of the rifle at the receiver, to minimise the effects on impact point of pressure on the fore-end by slings, bipods, or the sniper's hands. The end of the barrel is usually crowned or machined to form a rebated area around the muzzle proper to avoid asymmetry or damage, and consequent inaccuracy. Alternatively, some rifles such as the Dragunov or Walther WA2000 provide structures at the fore-end to provide tension on the barrel in order to counteract barrel drop and other alterations in barrel shape.

So, do any of the Arsenal meet the bolded criteria?

A cursory comparison of battle rifles versus sniper rifles makes me think the distinction between Battle and Assault Rifle is negligible in SR.

[Cabral]

Edit: Double post after Dumpshock said it didn't go through (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[The Jopp]

Now, I know that a sniper rifle isnt meant for hip shooting and perhaps the opticts might get a jolt when handling the weapon carelessly but taht really doesn't matter.

A snipers short range is 150 meters, any gunfight within 50 meters and the optics being borked wont really matter sinc they are made for shooting long range and you start hipshooting people with your barret at 50. The only thing you might have as a problem is the recoil your prone position combined with proper bracing - other than that it will be a cakewalk pointing the gun with a HUD display giving a crosshair over your target.

Hell, you might even modify the weapon so that it is designed for hipshooting by moving the firing mechanism to the top of the weapon.

[Mäx]

That rule on sniper rifles is by far the most stupid rule's addition of the Anniversary edition and becouse it really doesn't make any fragging sense what so ever.

[Runner Smurf]

It's a silly rule, and one that should apply to all scoped firearms except sniper rifles. On the other hand, I can see why they felt the need to try and put some sort of restriction on sniper rifles to preserve some semblance of game balance. The rules have a core problem in that they treat firing a handgun, a hunting rifle, a sniper rifle and an anti-materiel rifle as all equivalent. And shooting a moving target at ranges of over a klick is no problem at all for a sniper with a scope.

The biggest problem though is just from making the game fun. A sniper can start dropping players from a klick-and-a-half out, with the players having no practical ability to respond to the attack. Hell, that first shot will more than likely be a kill because the target will be unable to defend. Which is certainly realistic, but it's certainly not fun. As a GM, you can't use snipers without being perceived (rightly, in most cases) as a complete ass. And while a player may get a kick out of being the team sniper, during game that means that most of the time he is separated from the rest of the team, not contributing much, and spends much of the time waiting for to drop security guards. While some players may end up having a bunch of fun doing that, a lot end up being bored. Even worse, as a GM, there isn't much you can do to engage the sniper without coming off (rightly, again) as a complete ass: patrolling spirits, random guards, finding the sniper and ganking him.

So, I have a house rule when it comes to snipers and sniping: They aren't much fun, and they expose a bunch of flaws in the rules. I'll make you a deal: you don't use snipers, I won't use snipers. I'm flexible on this one, as sometimes you just have to set up as a sniper to do the job, just don't abuse it. If you don't, I won't.

I also have a house rule when it comes to assault cannons: Unless you are a troll with a 12 body, 12 strength, a smartlink and you don't care if you hit anything, you cannot fire an assault cannon from-the-hip or standing up. I don't care what the rules say.

I've considered adding a threshold for certain weapons as well: the first X hits you get on the attack test don't count as they go to overcoming the difficulty of using the weapon, overcoming bad shooting position, etc. Just been too lazy to set them for the various weapon types, and codify the rules.

I like the "cumbersome weapon rating" that was posted above, and I may use it as well.

[EKBT81]

A cursory comparison of battle rifles versus sniper rifles makes me think the distinction between Battle and Assault Rifle is negligible in SR.

This distinction also seems to be made primarily among English-speakers. In German all selective fire infantry rifles tend to be called "Sturmgewehr" (assault rifle), cf. the official designations of the FAL in Austria (Sturmgewehr 58) and the SIG 510 in Switzerland (Sturmgewehr 57).

[The Jopp]

Just for fun I made the HK-XM30 'Transformer' as a weapon transforming on the fly to the weapon needed, no requirement to rebuild the weapon. Ammunition/Clip must be inserted manually though.

Instead of the 5 minutes to rebuild it it takes X2 complex actions.

HK-XM30 'TF'
Powered Easy Breakdown [2]
Exchangeable Weapon Mod: Underbarrel [Grenade Launcher / Shotgun]
Powered Folding Stock [1]

[Yerameyahu]

In Shadowrun, there are no battle rifles, so the difference is beyond negligible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why some of us have added them.
However, there are clear distinctions to be made for those who wish to; primarily, the power of the bullets fired. The Shadowrun DV system certainly has room for the addition, as the existence of Sport Rifles shows us. *shrug*

[The Jopp]

I find it interesting the the Elephant Rifle is actually put under Sports Rifles and not Shotguns as it very much resembles and old style double barreled shotgun.

Not to mention that the thing is a beast if you make a sawn off 'shotgun' with it and removes the stock and barrel - you still have a short range of 80 meters.

[Mäx]

I find it interesting the the Elephant Rifle is actually put under Sports Rifles and not Shotguns as it very much resembles and old style double barreled shotgun.

Arsenal has a douple barrel shotgun from the same manufacterer, the elephant rifle is more like this

[The Jopp]

Arsenal has a douple barrel shotgun from the same manufacterer, the elephant rifle is more like this

I know, I'v checked the site to find info about triple barreled and four barreled shotguns/rifles (Improved Clip=Extra barrel).

But from image and description alone the difference between the two would only be choke setting then?

[Link]

This distinction also seems to be made primarily among English-speakers. In German all selective fire infantry rifles tend to be called "Sturmgewehr" (assault rifle), cf. the official designations of the FAL in Austria (Sturmgewehr 58) and the SIG 510 in Switzerland (Sturmgewehr 57).

I don't think there is a genuine distinction, the terms are used interchangeably.

[Yerameyahu]

To me, the difference between the PJSS (do you think it shoots this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur) and a shotgun is rifling, but in 2070, isn't everything rifled? The thing is, SR weapons include a particular base ammo, so the PJSS has a high-powered rifle cartridge as its base, while slug shotguns don't have the same base.

[Mäx]

I know, I'v checked the site to find info about triple barreled and four barreled shotguns/rifles (Improved Clip=Extra barrel).

But from image and description alone the difference between the two would only be choke setting then?

No the diffenence is that elephant rifle shoot a lot more powerfull rounds then the shotgun.

[CanRay]

No the diffenence is that elephant rifle shoot a lot more powerfull rounds then the shotgun.

As well as precision of manufacturing. An Elephant Rifle is usually hand-made in about 100-man hours by skilled gunsmiths and have no interchangeable parts. (At least, the ones made by Holland & Holland are built that way. And that's a good enough example for me!).

Shotguns, recieve quite less attention, but have interchangeable parts for ease of maintenance, and cost much, much less.

[Doc Chase]

To me, the difference between the PJSS (do you think it shoots this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur) and a shotgun is rifling, but in 2070, isn't everything rifled? The thing is, SR weapons include a particular base ammo, so the PJSS has a high-powered rifle cartridge as its base, while slug shotguns don't have the same base.

No, I think it fires the .600 Overkill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Original elephant guns were firing 4-gauge black-powder shot that had a lower muzzle velocity than your average assault rifle - <1500 f/s. Once jacketed ammo became widespread, the Nitro Express rounds came out and the bores got smaller as penetration increased. 12 gauge is still the bore of choice for shotguns as it provides a good penetration/kickback ratio when using solid-core tungsten slugs.

Shotguns don't require rifling because the payload doesn't require it. A PJSS would, sure. The closest approximation to any other SR weapon for a PJSS is the 121 as they're both capable of anti-materiel use.

[CanRay]

And now, there's the .700 Nitro Express.

Looks like Holland & Holland are getting ready for Para-Critters!

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, I think we all see the point.

[CanRay]

Unless you have a Smartgun Link on a sniper rifle, you're not going to be able to sight at close range anyhow.

The scope is almost always high-powered (10X? 20X?), and in the way of any iron sights (And a number of dedicated Sniper Rifles LACK Iron Sights!) so you'd be aiming, and seeing an eyeball the size of a Troll's fist!

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that always bothered me in SR, because it's another way that scopes and things are so easy and ubiquitous that they 'don't exist'.

Personally, I *like* the way most video games make you choose between different scope powers; if you want something you can use flexibly and quickly, you can't use the high-powered one. Now, SR is The Future™, and I certainly don't want to say that scopes (actually, cameras) can't be variable-powered, automatic, computer-controlled, etc. Some gestures at tradeoffs would be nice, though, in our more 'realistic' (quote-unquote) infantry-style campaigns. I think the required Take Aim action is a great start, and is probably plenty of tradeoff for most games, don't get me wrong.

[Draco18s]

Sniper rifles need to have their damage code modified such that in close combat they are not super-deadly, but that in a stabilized location they get a base damage bonus. This would prevent players from using a 9DV gun in close quarters and "just eating" the -1 DP modifier.

[Smokeskin]

Unless you have a Smartgun Link on a sniper rifle, you're not going to be able to sight at close range anyhow.

The scope is almost always high-powered (10X? 20X?), and in the way of any iron sights (And a number of dedicated Sniper Rifles LACK Iron Sights!) so you'd be aiming, and seeing an eyeball the size of a Troll's fist!

RL, I dropped a boar that was in full sprint less than 10 meters away with my scope on 10x. With an illuminated reticle and both eyes open, you get the reticle superimposed on the left eye's view, sort of like a red dot sight.