On p.319 SR4A it is explained that sniper rifles used in running gunfights tend to break (every combat turn results in an edge test, each failed test incurs a -1 modifier until recalibrated) with the exception of the Walther MA-2100. However, there is no mention of this rule in Arsenal. Some of the guns in Arsenal are described as being for military use, etc, but no mention of this 'sniper rifle hardening' is mentioned. So, is it possible to go about hardening a sniper rifle for use in a firefight? Would melee hardening (p.152 Arsenal) cover this or would that merely prevent the gun from being destroyed by melee attack?

I'm interested in how people generally deal with sniper rifles and their capacity for lethal destruction in their campaigns and what, if any, mods help keep them from breaking in your average runner's gunfight.

The Walther's speshul because the barrel isn't extended like a typical sniper rifle - it's a compact, bullpup, high-accuracy rifle. Don't think melee hardening is going to fix your standard long-barrel 121.

I'm not sure what would happen in a running combat situation. I would figure the target optics get borked, but if you're running a smartlink and cybereyes with image magnification then who cares? You aren't going to knock an eye out.

Using sniper rifles in close combat is dumb. They are called precision rifles for a reason. It's like using a micrometer as a hammer.

They should really suck a lot more then the game portrays as general purpose weapons.

I would think the purpose of a weapon is pretty well defined.

Held true in 2nd edition, still holds true today. One of the finest quotes I've ever read.

Actually, Melee hardenting would do nothing. Sniper Rifles are precision insturments, finely tuned to be fired from a stable position, not as a Assault Rifle or even a hunting rifle. Floating Barrels, specific ammo, etc. So running with one, and firing will throw off that delicate balance, thus...the rule. Melee Hardening might help if you rifle butt someone, but that will still affect the fine calibration of the rifle.

I agree with what all of you are saying but because a sniper rifle has more AP and a higher DV than any other easily acquired SA gun in the game, they are frequently selected by my players are things to argue with me about. Currently, a sniper rifle is commonly used with high powered optics mounted on the weapon but in SR's future a street sam with cybereyes and a smartlinked rifle can shoot from the hip as accurately as a prone shooter with a rifle rest would today. Because of this potential the desire to turn one of the non-hardened rifles into something akin to the Walther MA-2100 comes up pretty frequently. If there was a short-ranged equivalent of the sniper rifle, with anywhere near the DV or AP, I think people wouldn't feel quite so compelled to use the rifles outside their intended role.

To best emphasize the unwieldy nature of the sniper rifle in close combat, have your players try to play Silent Scope 2 in the arcade. You're talking about a weapon that is all but unconcealable and tends to be highly restricted, so any authority figure is going to bring the hammer down hard on a party of rifle-wielding mooks.

Recall as well, these things are bolt action or semi-auto weapons that could leave them wide open to a countershot after they take their first bead on a tango. But if they really want to traipse around everywhere with a cello case on their back, people are going to start raising eyebrows.

The Developers somehow see to think that taking a medium machine gun bullet and shooting it out of a sniper rifle mystically makes it double plus good. Umm, no.

Easy fix is to make the sniper rifles equal to the same guns whose round they shoot, either by increasing the lethality of machine guns or reducing sniper rifles. I'd encourage increasing damage myself, as I think the game portrays everything but handguns as too wimpy.

Yeah, the thing I need to make everyone happy is game rules for a battle rifle. Something with a 15-20 round magazine, 7P+ damage, SA/BF/FA and maybe sport rifle ranges.

Hehe, what was it? Something along the lines of a "I thought the general purpose of a machine gun was pretty well known?" or somesuch?

Anyhoo, I think the general premise behind the Sniper rifle rules, which seem pretty much the same over the versions, is that you trade higher damage and penetration/etc for the 'don't use this in normal combat' tradeoff. I mean, i guess it fits with what we 'see'. The SWAT team sniper doesn't usually run with the close quarters pack bringing his death-rod with him. He finds a nice perch, braces his weapon and waits for orders.

On the other hand, something like an M14 variant makes a nice hybrid precision rifle and 'in the heat of battle' rifle.

This is exactly what I need, I'm gonna make one up and post it for comments.

Absolutely not. Sniper rifles are made to be sturdy and not lose their zero. They're a lot heavier and everything is thicker and it is produced with far lower tolerances, giving the parts less room to wiggle around.

Even if there was some mighty fine calibration thingy that got upset, it would only affect extended range shots. It wouldn't suddenly give it worse short range accuracy than an AR.

On top of this I'm fairly certain that even if the zero shifted, 2073 smartlinks automatically rezero the sights.

If they do run with the close-quarters pack, they generally have a PDW or a spotter with said PDW providing cover.

I don't let people mod fire rates, and I added a Cumbersome Weapon Rating to all weapons.

Cumbersome weapon rating: Weapons with a CWR applies this as a negative modifier to Initiative Score, unless the weapon is properly braced (lying prone, weapon resting on a low wall, etc.). In confined spaces, like melee combat, firing from inside a car, or leaning out of a window, the GM can choose to apply the CWR as a negative dice pool modifier.

CWR 2: Assault rifles, shotguns, sport rifles
CWR 3: Assault shotguns with ammo drums.
CWR 4: <9DV Sniper rifles, LMGs
CWR 5: 9DV Sniper rifles
CWR 6: Other heavy weapons

Actually, I used to amaze my friends with free scope shots in Silent Scope 1 and 2 (and the remake of 1). I wouldn't even consider that close to using a smart-link either.

Neither here nor there, I just wanted to toot my own horn.

Even on that damnedable snowboard level? If so, I tip my hat to you. I hate that level.

I was always using two eyes to shoot, one on scope and one off, so I learned where the on screen designator was versus my target. I like to think of it as primitive smart-link.

If siniper rilfe D-zeroed that much theyd be useless. Oh you had to just staired while it was slung you at a -10 mod now form all those bumps.

I would agree. My eyes didn't. But hey, I survived the level.

Nothing wrong with the RAW for sniper rifles. If absolutely necessary, houserule the hardier Arsenal rifles to act as the MA2100 does.

It might not be what you are looking for, but check out the Steyr-Aug CSL in Augmentation or the HK XM30 in the main book. Neither one is 'optimal' for the roles it coveres, but they do offer pretty on-the-fly versatility.

I'm basically going to craft a single purpose version of the 'rifle' entry from the Steyr-Aug CSL to fill that niche. I'll cross-reference the new post when I make it.

There are a dozen flexible, general use, high precision rifles in the books. They're called Assault Rifles.

In my group, we've added an extra section for Battle Rifles, which are just Sport Rifles with selective fire and military clips. You all know them already: the G3, for example.

The G3 is a fully automatic assault rifle though.

Which effectively makes it a sport rifle with a military clip and SA/FA. The distinction is... minimal.

The G3 has also been made in sniper configurations with a better barrel, scope and bipod and maybe a few more changes.

I posted a new topic with a few potential battle rifle concepts. I'd love feedback mostly on the DV and AP values of a heavier rifle. Also, I'm not too concerned about modern firearms as a restriction on designs; SR is a futuristic game for fantasy/cyberpunk enthusiasts. I'm as interested in creating Jayne's Vera from Firefly as I am in making the G3 or Mk14 mod 0 EBR. Thanks for all the comments so far!

The G3 is not an assault rifle. It's a battle rifle, which category of firearms *is* sometimes FA. But, I'm moving to the other thread with this.

Normally, if I'm not too knowledgeable on a subject, I'll check Wikipedia for an article. The article is pretty extensive, I'll leave it to someone else to evaluate its accuracy.

Relevant to this conversation is the following:


So, do any of the Arsenal meet the bolded criteria?

A cursory comparison of battle rifles versus sniper rifles makes me think the distinction between Battle and Assault Rifle is negligible in SR.

Edit: Double post after Dumpshock said it didn't go through

Now, I know that a sniper rifle isnt meant for hip shooting and perhaps the opticts might get a jolt when handling the weapon carelessly but taht really doesn't matter.

A snipers short range is 150 meters, any gunfight within 50 meters and the optics being borked wont really matter sinc they are made for shooting long range and you start hipshooting people with your barret at 50. The only thing you might have as a problem is the recoil your prone position combined with proper bracing - other than that it will be a cakewalk pointing the gun with a HUD display giving a crosshair over your target.

Hell, you might even modify the weapon so that it is designed for hipshooting by moving the firing mechanism to the top of the weapon.

That rule on sniper rifles is by far the most stupid rule's addition of the Anniversary edition and becouse it really doesn't make any fragging sense what so ever.

It's a silly rule, and one that should apply to all scoped firearms except sniper rifles. On the other hand, I can see why they felt the need to try and put some sort of restriction on sniper rifles to preserve some semblance of game balance. The rules have a core problem in that they treat firing a handgun, a hunting rifle, a sniper rifle and an anti-materiel rifle as all equivalent. And shooting a moving target at ranges of over a klick is no problem at all for a sniper with a scope.

The biggest problem though is just from making the game fun. A sniper can start dropping players from a klick-and-a-half out, with the players having no practical ability to respond to the attack. Hell, that first shot will more than likely be a kill because the target will be unable to defend. Which is certainly realistic, but it's certainly not fun. As a GM, you can't use snipers without being perceived (rightly, in most cases) as a complete ass. And while a player may get a kick out of being the team sniper, during game that means that most of the time he is separated from the rest of the team, not contributing much, and spends much of the time waiting for to drop security guards. While some players may end up having a bunch of fun doing that, a lot end up being bored. Even worse, as a GM, there isn't much you can do to engage the sniper without coming off (rightly, again) as a complete ass: patrolling spirits, random guards, finding the sniper and ganking him.

So, I have a house rule when it comes to snipers and sniping: They aren't much fun, and they expose a bunch of flaws in the rules. I'll make you a deal: you don't use snipers, I won't use snipers. I'm flexible on this one, as sometimes you just have to set up as a sniper to do the job, just don't abuse it. If you don't, I won't.

I also have a house rule when it comes to assault cannons: Unless you are a troll with a 12 body, 12 strength, a smartlink and you don't care if you hit anything, you cannot fire an assault cannon from-the-hip or standing up. I don't care what the rules say.

I've considered adding a threshold for certain weapons as well: the first X hits you get on the attack test don't count as they go to overcoming the difficulty of using the weapon, overcoming bad shooting position, etc. Just been too lazy to set them for the various weapon types, and codify the rules.

I like the "cumbersome weapon rating" that was posted above, and I may use it as well.

This distinction also seems to be made primarily among English-speakers. In German all selective fire infantry rifles tend to be called "Sturmgewehr" (assault rifle), cf. the official designations of the FAL in Austria (Sturmgewehr 58) and the SIG 510 in Switzerland (Sturmgewehr 57).

Just for fun I made the HK-XM30 'Transformer' as a weapon transforming on the fly to the weapon needed, no requirement to rebuild the weapon. Ammunition/Clip must be inserted manually though.

Instead of the 5 minutes to rebuild it it takes X2 complex actions.

HK-XM30 'TF'
Powered Easy Breakdown [2]
Exchangeable Weapon Mod: Underbarrel [Grenade Launcher / Shotgun]
Powered Folding Stock [1]

In Shadowrun, there are no battle rifles, so the difference is beyond negligible. That's why some of us have added them.
However, there are clear distinctions to be made for those who wish to; primarily, the power of the bullets fired. The Shadowrun DV system certainly has room for the addition, as the existence of Sport Rifles shows us. *shrug*

I find it interesting the the Elephant Rifle is actually put under Sports Rifles and not Shotguns as it very much resembles and old style double barreled shotgun.

Not to mention that the thing is a beast if you make a sawn off 'shotgun' with it and removes the stock and barrel - you still have a short range of 80 meters.

Arsenal has a douple barrel shotgun from the same manufacterer, the elephant rifle is more like this

I know, I'v checked the site to find info about triple barreled and four barreled shotguns/rifles (Improved Clip=Extra barrel).

But from image and description alone the difference between the two would only be choke setting then?

I don't think there is a genuine distinction, the terms are used interchangeably.

To me, the difference between the PJSS (do you think it shoots this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Tyrannosaur) and a shotgun is rifling, but in 2070, isn't everything rifled? The thing is, SR weapons include a particular base ammo, so the PJSS has a high-powered rifle cartridge as its base, while slug shotguns don't have the same base.

No the diffenence is that elephant rifle shoot a lot more powerfull rounds then the shotgun.

As well as precision of manufacturing. An Elephant Rifle is usually hand-made in about 100-man hours by skilled gunsmiths and have no interchangeable parts. (At least, the ones made by Holland & Holland are built that way. And that's a good enough example for me!).

Shotguns, recieve quite less attention, but have interchangeable parts for ease of maintenance, and cost much, much less.

No, I think it fires the .600 Overkill.

Original elephant guns were firing 4-gauge black-powder shot that had a lower muzzle velocity than your average assault rifle - <1500 f/s. Once jacketed ammo became widespread, the Nitro Express rounds came out and the bores got smaller as penetration increased. 12 gauge is still the bore of choice for shotguns as it provides a good penetration/kickback ratio when using solid-core tungsten slugs.

Shotguns don't require rifling because the payload doesn't require it. A PJSS would, sure. The closest approximation to any other SR weapon for a PJSS is the 121 as they're both capable of anti-materiel use.

And now, there's the .700 Nitro Express.

Looks like Holland & Holland are getting ready for Para-Critters!

Haha, nice. Anyway, I think we all see the point.

Unless you have a Smartgun Link on a sniper rifle, you're not going to be able to sight at close range anyhow.

The scope is almost always high-powered (10X? 20X?), and in the way of any iron sights (And a number of dedicated Sniper Rifles LACK Iron Sights!) so you'd be aiming, and seeing an eyeball the size of a Troll's fist!

Yeah, that always bothered me in SR, because it's another way that scopes and things are so easy and ubiquitous that they 'don't exist'.

Personally, I *like* the way most video games make you choose between different scope powers; if you want something you can use flexibly and quickly, you can't use the high-powered one. Now, SR is The Future™, and I certainly don't want to say that scopes (actually, cameras) can't be variable-powered, automatic, computer-controlled, etc. Some gestures at tradeoffs would be nice, though, in our more 'realistic' (quote-unquote) infantry-style campaigns. I think the required Take Aim action is a great start, and is probably plenty of tradeoff for most games, don't get me wrong.

Sniper rifles need to have their damage code modified such that in close combat they are not super-deadly, but that in a stabilized location they get a base damage bonus. This would prevent players from using a 9DV gun in close quarters and "just eating" the -1 DP modifier.

RL, I dropped a boar that was in full sprint less than 10 meters away with my scope on 10x. With an illuminated reticle and both eyes open, you get the reticle superimposed on the left eye's view, sort of like a red dot sight.