Raising magic is *really* expensive!, How can phys-ads keep up? Options

[OSUMacbeth]

So, a short bit of background: I've always been a sammy character in the great sammy vs. phsy-adept battle, but recently I've started an elf physical adept because I wanted to see just how bad 12 agility was at character creation. We use SECKSy, by the way, so skip any posts about my character is illegal. I have to admit, I was wrong about how badly adepts suck. I'm finding that while they don't have the sheer volume of options a samurai does in some areas, they balance it out in other ways. I am now cautiously optimistic that the two may be pretty well balanced (if you use Serbitar's .5 power point cost for attribute increases), though they can excel in different ways. But all that aside.

Sweet Lord God, what has happened with the costs to increase magic in 4th ed!? I can only assume that it was to tone down mages a bit, and it was probably even needed (my mage in 3rd initiated to 7 magic for a measly 9 karma, I think) but it seems to me that this change unintentionally hurts the adept. I mean, mages have about a bajillion powerful and flexible things they can do, and when their magic raises they get loads more powerful. But Adepts? We have 6 tiny power points at character creation, and they really don't go all that far. I find myself thinking "When I initiate and raise my magic to seven for *THIRTY-FOUR KARMA* which single ability or two will I get? The ability to ignore two whole boxes of damage mods? TWO whole more dice to dodge bullets with?" Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that adepts are necessarily underpowered, but I'm not sure I buy the argument anymore that our "unlimited" potential is so unbalancing since...well...who can afford to reach it. Long story short, does anyone else feel that this *MASSIVE* increase to raising magic is hurting adepts un-necessarily in order to reign in mages?

OSUMacbeth

[Kyoto Kid]

...I share your pain about adepts. In my campaign, I am using an optional houserule that an Adept can purchase additional power points with a flat 20 Karma. This however does not give them any access to Metamagic or increase Magic Attribute for the purpose of power duration and rating caps. If an Adept wished to raise her MA above it's Metahuman maxim, then she must still Initiate.

I am also thinking of adopting a different method for Adepts to be accepted by a group. Currently the rules in Street Magic require the Adept posess the Arcana Skill which, if you read the skill description, pertains to spell, spell formulae and focus Formulae design & thus makes sense only for the Mystic Adept.

[Kronk2]

[pbangarth]

[Demerzel]

You have to initiate once to raise your maximum magic score from 6 to 7. Then pay to raise your actual magic score from 6 to 7. He did it without cyber, you'll note that he's using, "Serbitar's .5 power point cost for attribute increases"

[pbangarth]

[Clyde]

To get another point of essence, the street sammie has to replace virtually all of his gear with a higher grade of ware. Beta Grade wired 2, for example, costs something like 120,000 :nuyen: . In our games, that'd take at least five to six runs (without expenses). The physad could conceivably earn 34 karma in that amount of time (6 or 7 karma per run).

[OSUMacbeth]

Clyde-Agreed. Looked at in that light it seems quite unfair to the Samurai. But have you ever looked at just how little 6 power points buys you? A samurai could use only cyberware (no bio) and still have a far greater number of enhancements. I mean, I understand where you're coming from. All other characters I've played before (with the exception of one mage) have been sammies, so I know what it's like over there. I love sammies to death. I too used to think that "unlimited potential" was very unbalancing, but I'm starting to wonder if you could ever actually reach it. I mean, yes, if you play an unlimited number of games and survive, but in reality how many people will reach this point? And how many games will you have played by the time you finally "surpass" the sammie, assuming that happens? 30 runs? 40?

PBandGarth- I got 34 Karma by the following method. Initiating is 10+(3xNewInitiateGrade) so 13 karma. Raising magic is 3*NewRating which is 21 karma. As both are necessary to go from 6 to 7, that's 34 karma for that first extra power point.

As an aside I used the .5 power points per increased attribute for the following reasons. First, most people who house rule seem to pick this value, which Serbitar agrees with. Second, when looked at in terms of resources spent it's still more expensive than Muscle Toner (which I think is good), and third because I realized that if my human with 6 natural agility wanted agility nine, he would have to spend *all six* of his starting power points just to get one ability score to nine. In all other ways he would basically be a mundane. (Original cost of 1 was doubled if you went above the racial limit.) Under the old system, you were either dedicated to a character concept or a fool if you didn't take 'ware. Now I feel like they're both pretty viable options. Even .75 per wouldn't be out of the question in my opinion, so long as it still didn't double after the racial limit.

Anyway, thank you all for your kind responses to my thread. I want everyone to know that I'm not trying to start the old debate of sammie vs adept back up again. If anything, I'm starting to think that they are much better balanced than I originally thought (improved attribute aside), but while I used to think that the adept had an insurmountable advantage, I'm now starting to think that, when you take everything into account, sammies may actually have the edge. In everything I've looked at with adepts, I have no major problems with anything (karma expenditure aside, and perhaps needing to have whichever skill it is to join a magical group. (retarded))

OSUMacbeth

[OSUMacbeth]

One idea I'd had to smooth out character progression was the hotly debated karma for money system. I've always hated the entire idea of this, but I think I'm starting to warm to it so long as it's inefficient. If you take it as given that 1 karma = 3000 nuyen (a la SECKSy) then I think a system of 1 karma for 2250 nuyen or 3750 nuyen for 1 karma might not be so bad. A character that used this option often would have a good amount less "total resources" than someone who just took what they got. Giving money for karma could represent hiring trainers and experienced shadowrunners to show you their tricks, or paying for top-of-the-line training aids like restricted magical libraries or full-VR simulation. Giving karma for money could represent a character who does jobs, small runs, or even has a day job during their free time. They're so busy keeping up with "the hustle" that they never really have time to refine their skills or reflect on the things they've learned. But money talks. :)

To stay on topic, this could alleviate some of the pressure on adepts, since we haven't got a great deal of use for money (assuming you're not a bio-adept.)

So, what do you think?

OSUMacbeth

[Kronk2]

[OSUMacbeth]

PBandGarth-Based on the experiences I've had so far, the maxed agility is even better than I thought it'd be. (It's actually 10 with attribute boost 2 when I need it. No need to go overboard.) Rather than default, though, I perfer to buy skills at rating 1 with a spec. For a mere 8 karma (SECKSy again) I get 3 more dice. My pistols skill may only be 1, but I get 17 dice to shoot one with a smartlink.)

I may post my character tomorrow if anyone is interested, but I'm a little worried about the inevitable implications that I'm a cheese-monkey monty-haul non-roleplaying rollplayer. Of course, I know that those aren't true so maybe it doesn't matter. I ask you, if the developers of SR4 didn't want a character to ever have agility 12 with all the benefits that come with it, why would they give us the option? :)

OSUMacbeth

[Leehouse]

They didn't want characters to have agility 12, this can be seen by the fact that agility is hard capped (by Maximum Augmented attribute rating) at 10 for elves, 9 for everyone else but trolls, and 7 for trolls. So the highest anyone can get is 11, assuming they have the Exceptional attribute quality.

[Glyph]

OSUMacbeth, monty haul is a relative term. In the campaign you are playing in, there are house rules in effect (and likely a somewhat higher power level). So I wouldn't call your character a munchkin just because he would be overpowered or illegal in "default" SR4.



Leehouse, that's not quite right. An elf with the exceptional Attribute quality for Agility has a maximum augmented rating of 12. Getting that 12 takes work, though. Even after getting an Agility of 8 (which is 75 points spent on a single Attribute, not counting 20 for the exceptional Attribute quality and 30 to be an elf), you still need to boost it by four points. Attribute boost is the only way to do that at char-gen, and it requires four successes and takes a simple action to activate. Permanently raising it by Magic without house rules would cost an adept 8 Magic points. Raising it by 4 points of muscle toner is much more practical, but also out of reach at char-gen, this time due to the Availability rating.

So the developers let people get 12 Agility, but in normal SR4, it is out of reach at char-gen, and can only be reached at all by making some sacrifices and tradeoffs eleswhere on the character, then working on improving it during the game. So they let you get 12 Agility, but they don't make it easy. :)

[DigitEyez]

I house-rule Hit caps at Skill+1 (as Serbitar does, if I'm not mistaken.) which makes agility 12 far less powerful than agility 6 and skill 6 when rolling for that skill. You'll be able to do something right and have the potential to be really good at something but won't be unless you actually spend time doing it. Unless edge is used in which case all bets are off.

[Ophis]

[Grinder]

That's how we run it in our games too.

[Serbitar]

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=16331&st=155
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16103

[Leehouse]

Yar I forgot it wasn't just a straight +1 in all categories, but rather a +1 to normal max and you multiply. Oh noes my noobness is showing.

[Clyde]

Adepts who try to keep up with sammies in sheer combat power are suckers. Street Samurai emphasize speed and offense (mainly in the form of a high Agility and Reaction, but easy Strength increases don't hurt). Adepts (traditionally) emphasize stealth, defense and hand to hand combat (which is stealthier than using a machine gun).

An adept who wants to go from Agi 5 to Agi 7 would pay 3 power points (going by the book). An adept who wants to go from Infiltration 4 to Infiltration 10 pays 1.5. Note that there's very little that gives bonus dice to perception. Even if the street sammie has loads of vision mods and uses Edge he's unlikely to spot you.

[Cain]

He's right, however, that the "Unlimited progression" line is a sham. By the time you earn enough karma to outshine any sammie in general combat prowess, the sam will have taken the same amount of karma and diversified.

[Demerzel]

[DigitEyez]

[Kyoto Kid]

...and for the essence conscious, you don't even need to get them as implants.

[toturi]

[Glyph]

Yet another reason to love the multitasking adept power, which makes Observe in Detail a free action.