So, a short bit of background: I've always been a sammy character in the great sammy vs. phsy-adept battle, but recently I've started an elf physical adept because I wanted to see just how bad 12 agility was at character creation. We use SECKSy, by the way, so skip any posts about my character is illegal. I have to admit, I was wrong about how badly adepts suck. I'm finding that while they don't have the sheer volume of options a samurai does in some areas, they balance it out in other ways. I am now cautiously optimistic that the two may be pretty well balanced (if you use Serbitar's .5 power point cost for attribute increases), though they can excel in different ways. But all that aside.

Sweet Lord God, what has happened with the costs to increase magic in 4th ed!? I can only assume that it was to tone down mages a bit, and it was probably even needed (my mage in 3rd initiated to 7 magic for a measly 9 karma, I think) but it seems to me that this change unintentionally hurts the adept. I mean, mages have about a bajillion powerful and flexible things they can do, and when their magic raises they get loads more powerful. But Adepts? We have 6 tiny power points at character creation, and they really don't go all that far. I find myself thinking "When I initiate and raise my magic to seven for *THIRTY-FOUR KARMA* which single ability or two will I get? The ability to ignore two whole boxes of damage mods? TWO whole more dice to dodge bullets with?" Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that adepts are necessarily underpowered, but I'm not sure I buy the argument anymore that our "unlimited" potential is so unbalancing since...well...who can afford to reach it. Long story short, does anyone else feel that this *MASSIVE* increase to raising magic is hurting adepts un-necessarily in order to reign in mages?

OSUMacbeth

...I share your pain about adepts. In my campaign, I am using an optional houserule that an Adept can purchase additional power points with a flat 20 Karma. This however does not give them any access to Metamagic or increase Magic Attribute for the purpose of power duration and rating caps. If an Adept wished to raise her MA above it's Metahuman maxim, then she must still Initiate.

I am also thinking of adopting a different method for Adepts to be accepted by a group. Currently the rules in Street Magic require the Adept posess the Arcana Skill which, if you read the skill description, pertains to spell, spell formulae and focus Formulae design & thus makes sense only for the Mystic Adept.

You have to initiate once to raise your maximum magic score from 6 to 7. Then pay to raise your actual magic score from 6 to 7. He did it without cyber, you'll note that he's using, "Serbitar's .5 power point cost for attribute increases"

To get another point of essence, the street sammie has to replace virtually all of his gear with a higher grade of ware. Beta Grade wired 2, for example, costs something like 120,000 . In our games, that'd take at least five to six runs (without expenses). The physad could conceivably earn 34 karma in that amount of time (6 or 7 karma per run).

Clyde-Agreed. Looked at in that light it seems quite unfair to the Samurai. But have you ever looked at just how little 6 power points buys you? A samurai could use only cyberware (no bio) and still have a far greater number of enhancements. I mean, I understand where you're coming from. All other characters I've played before (with the exception of one mage) have been sammies, so I know what it's like over there. I love sammies to death. I too used to think that "unlimited potential" was very unbalancing, but I'm starting to wonder if you could ever actually reach it. I mean, yes, if you play an unlimited number of games and survive, but in reality how many people will reach this point? And how many games will you have played by the time you finally "surpass" the sammie, assuming that happens? 30 runs? 40?

PBandGarth- I got 34 Karma by the following method. Initiating is 10+(3xNewInitiateGrade) so 13 karma. Raising magic is 3*NewRating which is 21 karma. As both are necessary to go from 6 to 7, that's 34 karma for that first extra power point.

As an aside I used the .5 power points per increased attribute for the following reasons. First, most people who house rule seem to pick this value, which Serbitar agrees with. Second, when looked at in terms of resources spent it's still more expensive than Muscle Toner (which I think is good), and third because I realized that if my human with 6 natural agility wanted agility nine, he would have to spend *all six* of his starting power points just to get one ability score to nine. In all other ways he would basically be a mundane. (Original cost of 1 was doubled if you went above the racial limit.) Under the old system, you were either dedicated to a character concept or a fool if you didn't take 'ware. Now I feel like they're both pretty viable options. Even .75 per wouldn't be out of the question in my opinion, so long as it still didn't double after the racial limit.

Anyway, thank you all for your kind responses to my thread. I want everyone to know that I'm not trying to start the old debate of sammie vs adept back up again. If anything, I'm starting to think that they are much better balanced than I originally thought (improved attribute aside), but while I used to think that the adept had an insurmountable advantage, I'm now starting to think that, when you take everything into account, sammies may actually have the edge. In everything I've looked at with adepts, I have no major problems with anything (karma expenditure aside, and perhaps needing to have whichever skill it is to join a magical group. (retarded))

OSUMacbeth

One idea I'd had to smooth out character progression was the hotly debated karma for money system. I've always hated the entire idea of this, but I think I'm starting to warm to it so long as it's inefficient. If you take it as given that 1 karma = 3000 nuyen (a la SECKSy) then I think a system of 1 karma for 2250 nuyen or 3750 nuyen for 1 karma might not be so bad. A character that used this option often would have a good amount less "total resources" than someone who just took what they got. Giving money for karma could represent hiring trainers and experienced shadowrunners to show you their tricks, or paying for top-of-the-line training aids like restricted magical libraries or full-VR simulation. Giving karma for money could represent a character who does jobs, small runs, or even has a day job during their free time. They're so busy keeping up with "the hustle" that they never really have time to refine their skills or reflect on the things they've learned. But money talks.

To stay on topic, this could alleviate some of the pressure on adepts, since we haven't got a great deal of use for money (assuming you're not a bio-adept.)

So, what do you think?

OSUMacbeth

PBandGarth-Based on the experiences I've had so far, the maxed agility is even better than I thought it'd be. (It's actually 10 with attribute boost 2 when I need it. No need to go overboard.) Rather than default, though, I perfer to buy skills at rating 1 with a spec. For a mere 8 karma (SECKSy again) I get 3 more dice. My pistols skill may only be 1, but I get 17 dice to shoot one with a smartlink.)

I may post my character tomorrow if anyone is interested, but I'm a little worried about the inevitable implications that I'm a cheese-monkey monty-haul non-roleplaying rollplayer. Of course, I know that those aren't true so maybe it doesn't matter. I ask you, if the developers of SR4 didn't want a character to ever have agility 12 with all the benefits that come with it, why would they give us the option?

OSUMacbeth

They didn't want characters to have agility 12, this can be seen by the fact that agility is hard capped (by Maximum Augmented attribute rating) at 10 for elves, 9 for everyone else but trolls, and 7 for trolls. So the highest anyone can get is 11, assuming they have the Exceptional attribute quality.

OSUMacbeth, monty haul is a relative term. In the campaign you are playing in, there are house rules in effect (and likely a somewhat higher power level). So I wouldn't call your character a munchkin just because he would be overpowered or illegal in "default" SR4.



Leehouse, that's not quite right. An elf with the exceptional Attribute quality for Agility has a maximum augmented rating of 12. Getting that 12 takes work, though. Even after getting an Agility of 8 (which is 75 points spent on a single Attribute, not counting 20 for the exceptional Attribute quality and 30 to be an elf), you still need to boost it by four points. Attribute boost is the only way to do that at char-gen, and it requires four successes and takes a simple action to activate. Permanently raising it by Magic without house rules would cost an adept 8 Magic points. Raising it by 4 points of muscle toner is much more practical, but also out of reach at char-gen, this time due to the Availability rating.

So the developers let people get 12 Agility, but in normal SR4, it is out of reach at char-gen, and can only be reached at all by making some sacrifices and tradeoffs eleswhere on the character, then working on improving it during the game. So they let you get 12 Agility, but they don't make it easy.

I house-rule Hit caps at Skill+1 (as Serbitar does, if I'm not mistaken.) which makes agility 12 far less powerful than agility 6 and skill 6 when rolling for that skill. You'll be able to do something right and have the potential to be really good at something but won't be unless you actually spend time doing it. Unless edge is used in which case all bets are off.

That's how we run it in our games too.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=16331&st=155
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16103

Yar I forgot it wasn't just a straight +1 in all categories, but rather a +1 to normal max and you multiply. Oh noes my noobness is showing.

Adepts who try to keep up with sammies in sheer combat power are suckers. Street Samurai emphasize speed and offense (mainly in the form of a high Agility and Reaction, but easy Strength increases don't hurt). Adepts (traditionally) emphasize stealth, defense and hand to hand combat (which is stealthier than using a machine gun).

An adept who wants to go from Agi 5 to Agi 7 would pay 3 power points (going by the book). An adept who wants to go from Infiltration 4 to Infiltration 10 pays 1.5. Note that there's very little that gives bonus dice to perception. Even if the street sammie has loads of vision mods and uses Edge he's unlikely to spot you.

He's right, however, that the "Unlimited progression" line is a sham. By the time you earn enough karma to outshine any sammie in general combat prowess, the sam will have taken the same amount of karma and diversified.

...and for the essence conscious, you don't even need to get them as implants.

Yet another reason to love the multitasking adept power, which makes Observe in Detail a free action.

Also, if you feel adepts need to stretch their power points, you can always use the optional rules for adept geasa in street magic.

...in a new campaign I am in some of the base costs for Adept powers have been adjusted slightly downwards. Not dramatically so, but enough to get a little more bang for the PP buck. Considering the cost for initiating + MA increase, I do not see this as that unbalancing.

Mmmm... face....

Heh, sorry. I sometimes look back at replies I write and think, boy, I could have been a little nicer....

My take (having played a sam for quite a while now in 4th and recently looked at the Adept rules in detail) is that the sam will be more generalized but can not match the adept in his focus. Created an obscene focused adept is easy - creating an adept good at a wide range of things is hard (other than Agi 12).

The increased attribute power as written in 4th is so horribly broken that nobody will seriously consider it. House ruling it to .5 or .75 (and no doubling) seems good. The other one I have a problem with is Increased Reflexes (or whatever the wired equivalent is) - the magic cost is just too far out of line with the essence cost of getting synaptic boosters.

My abusive combat adept started out looking like this:
Muscle Toner 4 (house rule allows availability > 12 if significantly narrowing a contact's "focus")
Synaptic Booster 2
Reflex Recorder (in combat skill of choice)
Agility 12 (Elf+Exceptional+Toner)
Combat skill of choice 12 (7 with talented + reflex + 4 from adept power)
+ specialized for 2 more dice
Other Powers (still have 2 magic worth of powers to choose)

This example has two points:
1) The costs are wrong if it makes much more sense to get ware than buy the adept power. It gets even worse when you consider you can get upgrade to alpha Toner and Synaptic 3 and still stay under 2 essence of ware.
2) Adepts can be very obscene when focused on one specialty. Generalizing is much harder (even if you do lower the increased attribute power cost).

Oh, on another note, adepts can still join a group and do tasks so the cost to initiate is much lower (60% of normal cost +5 one-time cost to join the group).

On an unrelated note, has anyone come up with a good rule for adepts joining magical groups (instead of the Arcana test which makes little sense for a phys-ad)?

Personally, I think that it's nice that there are bioware options out there to tempt adepts away from their "purity". Right now, adept powers are better for some things, and cyberware and bioware are better for other things. But even a non-powergaming adept, with no 'ware at all and a soft-maxed Magic of 5, can still get improved reflexes: 2 and have 2 power points left for other goodies. For the combat adepts who eschew muscle toner, Agility boost: 1 is a cheap way to get a similar advantage in combat.


And adepts make decent generalists - the adept quality, a Magic of 5, and resources of 5 cost the same as a street samurai's resources of 50, so both of them can have the same variety of possible skill sets. They only seem to be less good at generalists than before because SR4 rewards hyper-specialization.


By the way, you can only improve a skill up to x 1.5, rounded down, so your adept example with a skill of 7 can only get it up to 10 (on the plus side, that would free up another point of adept abilities for other things).

My basic point - that adepts aren't focused on offensive combat - remains unchanged. Adepts can buy up mystic armor, combat sense, improved infiltration (not as much as pre-errata - my bad, but in my defense I never use the things anyway), traceless walk, etc. They are more likely to surprise an opponent than a sammie. They are not going to be as good in a toe to toe slugfest - not as many initiative passes and not as flexible.

Consider a build like this (hopefully legal ): Improved Reflexes I, Improved Agility I, Combat Sense 2, Improved Ability Infiltration 2, and 1.5 points worth of whatever floats your boat. That gets you to 14 infiltration dice - combine that with a Chameleon suit and thermal damping (of course). Maybe a jacked up sammie will spot you, maybe he won't. Even when you are spotted, you are still hard to hit. Regular goons, or even fairly tough goons, just won't have a chance, however. Which ability is more useful to a shadowrunner? The ability to sneak past the competition, or the ability to start a humongous firefight that will call down the Star for sure?

Of course, a well made sammie can be pretty sneaky, too. Nobody with a 7 Agility is exactly a cape buffalo when he tries to be quiet.

Well hat really depends on if the runner has enough ammo to take out all of the cops who come after him or not. The number of law enforcement officers in Seattle is finite.

Just went back through Street Magic and Magic in the Shadows to get the exact karma costs to initiate and increase magic.

In SR3, You had a cost of 5 + (Desired Grade x Multiplier) (round down)
Multiplier = 3, No group, no ordeal
2.5, No group with ordeal
2, Group with no ordeal
1.5, Group with ordeal

So grade 1 initiation cost 9, 12, 15, or 18
grade 2 initiation cost 10, 14, 17, or 21
grade 3 initiation cost 12, 16, 20, or 24

Now, Initiation cost is seperate from increasing magic:
Cost to initiate is x[10 + (Grade x 3)] (round up)
x = .8 if initiating with group or ordeal
x = .6 if initiating with group and ordeal

Then to increase magic is (Desired rating x 3)
to increase to 7 costs 21, then 24, then 27

So complete cost to increase magic is:
7 = 29, 32, or 34
8 = 34, 37, or 40
9 = 39, 43, or 46

Now I know you all could do the math, I just wanted to present it in a blatantly obvious way. I forget who said it, but Magic is more powerfull in SR4, but only for mages who get more dice to all magic linked skills which allows you higher force spells with more sucesses and more favors from spirits bound and summoned.

A seperate cost for magic increase should be created for adepts, since right now they are just hosed. One GM I run under has made a house rule of 20 karma per power point, not to be confused with magic. While another has reduced cost of adept powers. Personally, I think those should be combined at a minimum, but anything else?

And on a side note, has anyone ever put much thought into adept focused ordeals? Most ordeals are mage exclusive, and none are adept, this is bullsh*t. Thoughts?

Karma costs for initiating in SR3 were way too cheap. They needed to be increased significantly for all magic characters.

Personally, I would not make magic increase any cheaper for adepts. I would change the cost of a few powers (attribute increase definitely and maybe a few others). I would create new ordeals (or modify existing ones) if most are non-adept.

A starting adept can be pretty abusive in a narrow focus. It seems that (generally) in SR4, sammies are the jack-of-all-trades and adepts are the hyper-focused specialists. You can create a specialist sam or a generalist adept but you could generally create a more effective char of the other type.

I haven't played or GMd a physical adept much in SR4 so I would not make sweeping changes. From what I've read (rules and boards), phys ads need some tweaking but nothing extreme (other than changing attribute increase to .5 or .75 and non-doubling cost).

Actually, the Magic boost from initiation wasn't very useful in SR3. In order to take full advantage of the magic increase, a grade 1 mage with no magic loss would have been required to learn spells at Force 7 for 7 karma each.

As far as the ordeals go, adepts can do most of them - they can't summon a familiar, and they can't go on a metaplanar quest unless a free spirit or great form guidance spirit uses its astral gateway power on its behalf. But otherwise, they can take any of the other ordeals just as well as a mage can. Asceticism, deed, and meditation are especiallly good ones for an adept to take.


I would not use the rules for adept ways from SR3. Adepts are already good at being hyper-specialists - why reward them further, while making generalist adepts even less attractive? Personally, I would love it if a combat-oriented adept spent the occasional power point on powers like sustenance or multi-tasking, making the character more unique.