What's up with securetech armor?

What's up with securetech armor?

Charon View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 08:33 AM Post #1
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087	Am I missing something about the securetech armor? They're just better than their normal counterpart for a lower price. Armor Jacket : 5/3, concealability 6, 900$ Secure Jacket : 5/3. concealability 9, 850$ Lined Coat : 4/2, Conc. 8, 700$ Secure Long coat, conc 10, 650$ They're ALL like this. It made no sense when it appeared in SSC and it's even more idiotic when they appear on top of each other in SR3. Not that's it's hard to fix, ignore or live with. It just makes no sense! I hate it when things make no sense... Ya know what? One of these day I'll design a run where the runners are hired by Ares to extract the geniuses working at the marketing department of whichever company produces these inferior product at a superior price and still manages to stay in business! Next run will be Ares hiring the runners to extract the geniuses working at securetech in the production department who manage to produce these armor at such a low cost while increasing concealability by as much as 50%. Ares will put these guys to work together and then they will conquer the world.

Replies (1 - 40)

Endgame50 View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 08:39 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 19-July 04 From: N 42° 43.799'. W 84° 27.901' Member No.: 6,496	Heh heh. Yeah, there's not much that really justifies the way Securetech armor is priced. That's probably why they decided Securetech armor is too "ergonomically tailored" to be able to accept armor modifications (CC p 52) like the Chemical Seal or Fire Resistance. Take that, Securetech! (Yet FFBA can accept those mods... huh) On a side note, Securetech armor tends to be marginally heavier. Not a big deal unless you're playing with encumberance rules and have low strength though. This post has been edited by Endgame50: Feb 17 2005, 08:41 AM

Charon

Feb 17 2005, 08:44 AM

Post #3

Running Target

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QUOTE (Endgame50 @ Feb 17 2005, 03:39 AM)

On a side note, Securetech armor tends to be marginally heavier. Not a big deal unless you're playing with encumberance rules and have low strength though.

Yeah, that's true.

That makes even more sense : Heavier AND more concealable.

They must use a secret super dense material so the armor can be thiner but winds up heavier.

Let's see if it can be melted and turned into AV ammo.

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 17 2005, 10:39 AM

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QUOTE (Charon)

That makes even more sense : Heavier AND more concealable.

In the field of body armor that can in fact happen, and it is certainly possible the heavier and more concealable alternative is cheaper to produce. Consider, for example, the following 10" x 12" (25cm x 30cm) rifle protection plates designed to be worn alone, providing NIJ Level III protection:
Polyethylene, 0.75" (1.9cm) thick, 1.4kg, $380
Steel, 0.25" (0.64cm) thick, 4.1kg, $110
(Source: BulletProofMe.Com)

There are plenty of materials of which body armor is weaved, and there is a lot of variety in density, strength/thickness and cost. A situation where more concealable (less thick but perhaps equally flexible) but heavier armor would end up costing less to produce is conceivable, and that's excluding any other factors which affect market price.

Of course, with the weight of items being a complete non-issue in most SR games, while Concealability remains very important, these items might be out of balance. Go ahead and correct them, if you will. I use strict encumbrance (house) rules, so this would be no problem for me even if I used canon pieces of body armor.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 17 2005, 10:40 AM

RunnerPaul View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 01:09 PM Post #5
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364	From what I understand, the Securetech was originally intended to be an "Errata" to the armor clothing stats that were in the original Big Blue Book, but unfortunately, the intent wasn't well communicated or documented among the developers at FASA in the early first edition days, so both the core rulebook's "Generic" armor clothing, and the Street Samurai's Catalog Securetech ended up persisting throughout the editions, until the Cannon Companion authors decided to further distinguish the two.

CoalHeart View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 03:01 PM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757	Isn't Securetech armor suppose to enhance concealability of any holsters or items hidden underneath it to a large degree? I think that's why it costs more, and can't take mods. It has some kind of anti scanner layer that takes up most of it's weave. If not. Then I'm completely mistaken and this should be fixed up a bit give it some kind of perk for the higher cost.

Modesitt View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 03:07 PM Post #7
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963	SecureTech armor can be forced to make sense. The trick is this: You have to assume it is just a Brand Name. I talk about this a bit here. My personal opinion is that you should view it as a precursor to the armor outlined in CC. It's basically a brand name with strange traits all its own that don't really make much sense.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 05:17 PM Post #8
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	Or, it's cheaper because it cannot accept armor mods of any kind, like nonconductive or insulated. This makes it pretty damn unattractive in my games. Those are popular.

U_Fester View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 05:24 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863	That is what I think it is. The higher concealability is offset by the fact that it can not be moded and this is also why it is cheaper.

Charon

Feb 17 2005, 07:24 PM

Post #10

Running Target

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QUOTE (U_Fester @ Feb 17 2005, 12:24 PM)

That is what I think it is. The higher concealability is offset by the fact that it can not be moded and this is also why it is cheaper.

Didn't notice that.

But in that case you have the explanation backward. The securetech has been cheaper with higher concealability back since SSC in 1991 or so. Only with CC has mod been introduced.

So the 'No mod' rule for securetech has been added over a decade after introduction of the wacky stats, therefore the rule was made because of the stats, not the price fixed because of the rule.

So I guess I should amend my question to : What were the designers thinking at the time?

:D

BTW : While cracking open my Street Samurai Catalog, I noticed that form fitting armors are introduced in the page opposite to securetech clothing. And while reading that entry, I noticed that back then, FFA was not usable with other forms of body armor. Nowadays they stack with no penalty.

Things have changed since the 'old days', eh?

Nikoli View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 08:09 PM Post #11
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Also, didn't the fluff text describe the securetech as being for law-enforcement types, that it was modeled after "respectable" clothing type stuff. I know the old SSC pictures showed cheezy, detective type styling

tisoz View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 08:42 PM Post #12
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	It said it came in a full range of designer styles and colors.

The Grifter View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:08 PM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918	And don't we all just need designer body armor?

Charon View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:15 PM Post #14
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087	No, we don't. What we really need are armored bathing suits. Beach runs are the worst.

tisoz View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:29 PM Post #15
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	Paradise Lost

The Grifter View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:30 PM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918	Yeah, I can see a Troll in an armored bikini. Yuck.

Nikoli View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:31 PM Post #17
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033	Wouldn't it have to be armored? How else would it "hold up"

The Grifter View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 09:32 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918	There goes my lunch. Cheers, chummer. LOL

paul_HArkonen View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 10:51 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295	I thought that was what things like second skin armor was for, so you could go to the beach and not look like you were crazy.

Arethusa

Feb 17 2005, 11:00 PM

Post #20

Runner

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

(Source: BulletProofMe.Com)

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but I was poking around the site and noticed the ballistic goggles. Any idea if it's possible to put prescription lenses in the low profile sunglass style goggles?

The Grifter View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 11:10 PM Post #21
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918	I'm sure if they have the technology to make cybernetic eyes it would be quite easy.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 11:25 PM Post #22
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Um, I'm kind of talking about reality. You know, the one that matters.

kevyn668

Feb 17 2005, 11:27 PM

Post #23

Runner

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QUOTE (Arethusa)

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Feb 17 2005, 05:39 AM)

(Source: BulletProofMe.Com)

This is a bit of a non sequitur, but I was poking around the site and noticed the ballistic goggles. Any idea if it's possible to put prescription lenses in the low profile sunglass style goggles?

Edited: Arethusa answered my question.

The Grifter View Member Profile	Feb 17 2005, 11:30 PM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918	Reality? What's that?

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 12:50 AM Post #25
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	they're just cool-looking safety glasses, which do come in prescription. the BCG glasses issued by the military perform the same function.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 01:29 AM Post #26
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Do you have any information on where I could get prescription lenses for these and what it might cost? All I know is that wraparound sunglasses and anything with curved lenses get rejected by most places, or at least the places I go to for lenses.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 01:41 AM Post #27
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Generally you can't, unless you have a very specific (read: small) perscription. Even then it's usually not possible without ending up with really thick lenses towards the sides, and having your eyes pointed anywhere but straight forward would distort everything pretty badly.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 01:46 AM Post #28
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	hm. i didn't think about that. what i actually meant was, they're cool-looking safety glasses, and safety glasses come in prescription. i don't know if cool-looking safety glasses come in prescription or not.

Fresno Bob

Feb 18 2005, 01:51 AM

Post #29

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QUOTE

Yeah, I can see a Troll in an armored bikini.

Oh man, for the first time I just realized that such a thing would indeed exist in SR. Thanks for the mental image.

Arethusa

Feb 18 2005, 01:53 AM

Post #30

Runner

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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

Generally you can't, unless you have a very specific (read: small) perscription. Even then it's usually not possible without ending up with really thick lenses towards the sides, and having your eyes pointed anywhere but straight forward would distort everything pretty badly.

Hm. That's unfortunately what I was expecting. I don't suppose you know any ways around/of managing that, or similar models of goggles that are shaped to accept prescription lenses?

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 01:56 AM Post #31
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	actually, it shouldn't be all that hard. it'd be like those smooth transition bi/trifocals, basically. you wouldn't lack peripheral vision any moreso than you do with normal glasses, unless you're one of those godless freaks who can see sideways. and, well, even then, you still wouldn't lose more peripheral vision than you do with normal glasses. i should market this idea. i'll be rich, and arethusa will have his goggles. everybody wins.

Kanada Ten

Feb 18 2005, 01:57 AM

Post #32

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Feb 17 2005, 08:41 PM)

Generally you can't, unless you have a very specific (read: small) perscription. Even then it's usually not possible without ending up with really thick lenses towards the sides, and having your eyes pointed anywhere but straight forward would distort everything pretty badly.

Though, one could make something akin to modern bifocals, where only an area of the sunglasses is prescription. That would make it no less inconvenient than normal glasses.

Argh, beaten by mfb.

kevyn668

Feb 18 2005, 02:03 AM

Post #33

Runner

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QUOTE (The Grifter)

Reality? What's that?

I was going to ask if he meant IRL or in SR.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 02:04 AM Post #34
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	huzzah, i win! 2 karma.

kevyn668

Feb 18 2005, 02:04 AM

Post #35

Runner

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QUOTE (Arethusa)

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Feb 17 2005, 08:41 PM)

Generally you can't, unless you have a very specific (read: small) perscription. Even then it's usually not possible without ending up with really thick lenses towards the sides, and having your eyes pointed anywhere but straight forward would distort everything pretty badly.

Hm. That's unfortunately what I was expecting. I don't suppose you know any ways around/of managing that, or similar models of goggles that are shaped to accept prescription lenses?

You could get contacts and buy the regular goggles.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 02:06 AM Post #36
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	or join the army, put in a 4187 to join the 82nd, and get in line for free laser eye surgery. that's right--in the army, they shoot you with laser beams for free.

Eyeless Blond View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 02:08 AM Post #37
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156	Hm. I suppose that's possible, but would they look even remotely cool? They'd probably be hellishly expensive, too, and the lens would have to be tailor-made for the frame, instead of just being cut from a larger lens like they are now. Basically they'd be hellishly expensive, far more than the ~$4-500 a decent pair of glasses costs nowadays. What would you be willing to pay for something like that?

kevyn668 View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 02:09 AM Post #38
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375	What are you refering to?

Kanada Ten

Feb 18 2005, 02:12 AM

Post #39

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE (mfb)

or join the army, put in a 4187 to join the 82nd, and get in line for free laser eye surgery. that's right--in the army, they shoot you with laser beams for free.

You know, by SR prices, it's not all that much more expensive to install a Smartlink...

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Feb 18 2005, 05:35 AM Post #40
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	SecureTech isn't cheaper when you factor in availability and street index. After factoring in street index the Secure Jacket is 100 Nuyen more than the the standard armored jacket. SecureTech is better so it is more popular. As a result, the manufacturer can sell it at a lower price. However, it is more expensive and more difficult to find on the street because everyone wants it. Secure clothing, on the other hand, even has a lower street index than armored clothing. I really don't get that.

Dog View Member Profile	Mar 6 2005, 12:32 PM Post #41
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025	maybe securetech's just uglier I mean, Wal-Mart says they got 'designer styles' too. It doesn't mean anything. Maybe it just comes in a couple of styles. What does 'wide range' mean? If it doesn't come in 'grubby alley-runner' style you probably can't use it lots of times.

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